The awareness itself is the unconditioned

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Ceisiwr
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by Ceisiwr »

“Sir, is there any consciousness at all that’s permanent, everlasting, eternal, imperishable, and will last forever and ever? “Mendicant, there is no consciousness at all that’s permanent, everlasting, eternal, imperishable, and will last forever and ever.

Then the Buddha, picking up a little bit of dirt under his fingernail, addressed that mendicant:

“There’s not even this much of any consciousness that’s permanent, everlasting, eternal, imperishable, and will last forever and ever. If there were, this living of the spiritual life for the complete ending of suffering would not be found. But since there isn’t, this living of the spiritual life for the complete ending of suffering is found."


- SN 22.97

An interesting one for the "eternal consciousness" crowd.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by Ceisiwr »

pegembara wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:28 am The delusion of existence ends permanently on arahantship leaving only "Teflon" non-sticky cooled "consciousness". The so called "vinnana adinassanam". The experience of seeing, hearing, feeling etc still remains.

All experiences end at "death" rather than "consciousness" or "Nibbāna-element with no residue left" or the unconditioned.
I don't think there is such a thing as the viññanam anidassanam, and I don't think nibbāna is some soul-that-isn't-a-soul either. When asked directly is there something or nothing when the Arahant dies (or variations of) Ven. Sariputta didn't say there is some unconditioned consciousness. Rather he said it can't be conceptualised, for it is the end of conceptualisation. Nibbāna isn't a "thing" or some place. It's the very cessation of that type of thinking.
[Maha Kotthita:] “Being asked if, with the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media, there is anything else, you say, ‘Don’t say that, my friend.’ Being asked if … there is not anything else … there both is & is not anything else … there neither is nor is not anything else, you say, ‘Don’t say that, my friend.’ Now, how is the meaning of your words to be understood?”

[Sariputta:] “The statement, ‘With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection] is it the case that there is anything else?’ objectifies non-objectification. The statement, ‘… is it the case that there is not anything else … is it the case that there both is & is not anything else … is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?’ objectifies non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes. However far objectification goes, that is how far the six contact media go. With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six contact-media, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of objectification.
https://suttacentral.net/an4.173/en/thanissaro

Talk of some permanent consciousness, some viññanam anidassanam, is merely conceptual proliferation based on the senses. If the Buddha was preaching a true permanent consciousness, ask yourself why he said he was doctrinally close to the annihilationists? Ask yourself why people confused him with actually being an annihilationist, rather than an eternalist? The answer is glaringly obvious it seems to me.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:03 pm
His theory is that the Buddha never definitively said "there is no I", but in the northern texts he does just that.
His statement is that the Buddha never said that there is no self, or that there is a self. Rather the self is an action, 'selfing'.
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:03 pm

Becoming otherwise isn't bhava, since everything that comes prior to bhava is also becoming otherwise.
This statement makes no sense.
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:27 pm
pegembara wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:28 am The delusion of existence ends permanently on arahantship leaving only "Teflon" non-sticky cooled "consciousness". The so called "vinnana adinassanam". The experience of seeing, hearing, feeling etc still remains.

All experiences end at "death" rather than "consciousness" or "Nibbāna-element with no residue left" or the unconditioned.
I don't think there is such a thing as the viññanam anidassanam
Yes, you have to omit various suttas passages, Udana verses and numerous similies for your version of annihilationism to be valid.
As stated, saying that consciousness within the context of the aggregates is all impermanant is evident. It doesn't cover liberated citta.
[Maha Kotthita:] “Being asked if, with the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media, there is anything else, you say, ‘Don’t say that, my friend.’ Being asked if … there is not anything else … there both is & is not anything else … there neither is nor is not anything else, you say, ‘Don’t say that, my friend.’ Now, how is the meaning of your words to be understood?”

[Sariputta:] “The statement, ‘With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection] is it the case that there is anything else?’ objectifies non-objectification. The statement, ‘… is it the case that there is not anything else … is it the case that there both is & is not anything else … is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?’ objectifies non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes. However far objectification goes, that is how far the six contact media go. With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six contact-media, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of objectification.
https://suttacentral.net/an4.173/en/thanissaro

The above passage clearly supports this. Since else where in the canon the six sense bases are equated to the All, and Nibbana is described as being beyond the All.
Consciousness without surface is objectless consciousness, also called 'the signless liberation of mind'.
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:03 pm Talk of some permanent consciousness, some viññanam anidassanam, is merely conceptual proliferation based on the senses. If the Buddha was preaching a true permanent consciousness, ask yourself why he said he was doctrinally close to the annihilationists? Ask yourself why people confused him with actually being an annihilationist, rather than an eternalist? The answer is glaringly obvious it seems to me.
If he was preaching a form of annihilationism, why did he refer to the goal as liberation of citta? Surely cessation of citta would be more appropriate and clearer?
You are clinging to the annihilationist doctrine which he warned about. As to why the teaching seems closer than eternalism, the answer is obviously because it is closer to denying the existence of a self.
The pitfall people fall into as you do, is equating this denial of self with extinction of all experience and consciousness rather than liberation of a selfesss consciousness freed from the 5 aggregates which the Buddha clearly describes.
"Any physical form by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him...Any feeling... Any perception... Any volitional formations...

"Any consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Liberated from reckoning in terms of consciousness, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, immeasurable, hard to fathom like the ocean. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply."

MN 72


Doesn't sound much like your annihilation does it?
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by pegembara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:27 pm
pegembara wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:28 am The delusion of existence ends permanently on arahantship leaving only "Teflon" non-sticky cooled "consciousness". The so called "vinnana adinassanam". The experience of seeing, hearing, feeling etc still remains.

All experiences end at "death" rather than "consciousness" or "Nibbāna-element with no residue left" or the unconditioned.
I don't think there is such a thing as the viññanam anidassanam, and I don't think nibbāna is some soul-that-isn't-a-soul either. When asked directly is there something or nothing when the Arahant dies (or variations of) Ven. Sariputta didn't say there is some unconditioned consciousness. Rather he said it can't be conceptualised, for it is the end of conceptualisation. Nibbāna isn't a "thing" or some place. It's the very cessation of that type of thinking.
:goodpost:

Nirodha is cessation - initially of greed, hatred and delusion of existence. Finally of all that is sensed which isn't actually "death". Notice the terms were within " marks used.

Experience beyond verbal descriptions. All attempts to define it merely mental fabrications resulting from the need to know ie craving.
Those who know cannot say, those that say do not know.
"Or he doesn't assume form to be the self... but he may have a view such as this: 'This self is the same as the cosmos. This I will be after death, constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change.' This eternalist view is a fabrication... Or... he may have a view such as this: 'I would not be, neither would there be what is mine. I will not be, neither will there be what is mine.' This annihilationist view is a fabrication... Or... he may be doubtful & uncertain, having come to no conclusion with regard to the true Dhamma. That doubt, uncertainty, & coming-to-no-conclusion is a fabrication.

"What is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by what is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the effluents."
"This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana."
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:18 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:15 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:53 am This is just the Ātman but without the name.
And without the self
I don't see any difference between this eternal awareness and the Ātman of the Upanishads, bar the label. If it looks like a duck, quack likes a duck and leaves duck shit everywhere then it is a duck even if someone doesn't want to call it a duck. If you are dealing with permanent realities then the name can change but the substance does not. The Ātman is a permanent awareness that is beyond ego and the phenomenal world.
I tend to agree. I don't see support in the suttas for an "awareness" which is eternal and/or unconditioned.
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

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Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:08 pm An interesting one for the "eternal consciousness" crowd.
There isn't even this much consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity.

If there were even this much consciousness that was constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that would stay just as it is as long as eternity, then this living of the holy life for the right ending of suffering & stress would not be discerned.


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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

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Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:27 pm ask yourself why he said he was doctrinally close to the annihilationists?
because he was half way between annihilation ism and eternal ism


both and neither… in other words
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:33 am Steve Vai also insists the awareness itself is unchanging, & not subjected to conditions.
I've experienced something similar, but I don't see any support for this kind of experience in the suttas.
In terms of the OP, it makes me wonder if Ajahn Sumedho is more Advaita than Buddhist?
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

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I like awareness very much
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

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sphairos wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:10 pm I like awareness very much
Me too, but the difficulty is working out what "awareness" actually refers to in the suttas. It's a very vague word.
Possibly it's more to do with sati than vinnana?
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

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Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:15 pm but the difficulty is working out what "awareness" actually refers to in the suttas. It's a very vague word.
Advaita equates awareness and consciousness
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

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obviously consciousness changes its content


even if you don't annihilate it
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

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cappuccino wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:17 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:15 pm but the difficulty is working out what "awareness" actually refers to in the suttas. It's a very vague word.
Advaita equates awareness and consciousness


Perhaps, but this doesn't answer my question.

What does "awareness" refer to in the suttas? Do the suttas even include a non-vinnana "awareness"? Or is this really descriptive of satipatthana?
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

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cappuccino wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:18 pm obviously consciousness changes its content
even if you don't annihilate it
Consciousness has objects, not "content".
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

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Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:26 pm Consciousness has objects, not "content".
thoughts, feelings, some kind of quality


better if you meditate
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