The awareness itself is the unconditioned

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TheSynergist
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by TheSynergist »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:03 am
TheSynergist wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:18 am ~
I have come to the opposite perspective. The more I investigate the suttas it is clear to me liberation of mind/consciousness is the goal and this is beyond the aggregates.
The sutta I referenced clearly describes 'consciousness not landing' through not taking delight in the aggregate of consciousness.
Consciousness in the 6 sense bases is simply congizance. This include the mind sense base and mind-objects. So 'any arising cognizance of senses whatsoever is impermanant'.

Objectless consciousness is a synonym for Nibbana and separate from 'any type of sensory cogizance'.
I agree with you that liberating consciousness is the goal of the path. But here's my interpretation of what "liberated consciousness" means, using the Buddha's light analogy -- What does light that not have an object to reflect upon look like? Darkness, pitch blackness, like the space between stars in a night sky. The photons are there, but they don't appear. I'd understand a non-manifest consciousness to be like that invisible photon.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:03 am The teaching doesnt really make sense if all that we consider as a person is simplythe aggregates, and yet we are trying to be liberated from the aggregates.
The witnessing is beyond this and is what is liberated.
Elsewhere it is said that the six sense bases are 'the all' and that liberated citta is beyond the all.
This all points to a continuity of awareness aware of itself and liberated from involvement with the aggregates and sense bases as Nibbana.
The way I see it is this: An Arahant still uses the aggregates they were born with to function in this world, they just don't grasp them --- they are undefiled aggregates. Likewise, one still uses their aggregates to become enlightened --- Ven. Sariputta says wisdom and consciousness cannot be viewed as separate (going back to MN 43). So I guess I don't really see the need for a sort of "knowingness" or "witnessing" apart from the aggregates....non-grasping aggregates will do (what you call "witnessing" I'd suggest probably relates to Ven Sariputta's "pure mind consciousness free of sense consciousness"). Upon the breakup of the Arahant's body, the Arahant "enters" Parinibanna, and there is no more rebirth as any sort of aggregates.

"Elsewhere it is said that the six sense fields are 'the all' and that liberated citta is beyond the all." What sutta are you talking about here? Specifically, the part about the "liberated citta is beyond the all"? Thanks :anjali:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:43 am
Not quite. You are just holding a variation of an annihilationist view which is an outsider teaching.
Yes, like we are supposed to.

“It might not be, and it might not be for me; it will not be, and it will not be for me.’

That is a variation of the annihilationist outlook. The problem with annihilationism is the concept of a self which ceases, but as doctrines go it’s the best of outsider teachings. Far better than the eternalists and their permanent perception, consciousness or whatever.

He understands as it really is: ‘Form will be exterminated’ … ‘Feeling will be exterminated’ … ‘Perception will be exterminated’ … ‘Volitional formations will be exterminated’ … ‘Consciousness will be exterminated.’

“With the extermination of form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness, that bhikkhu, resolving thus: ‘It might not be, and it might not be for me; it will not be, and it will not be for me,’ can cut off the lower fetters.”

“Resolving thus, venerable sir, a bhikkhu can cut off the lower fetters. But how should one know, how should one see, for the immediate destruction of the taints to occur?”

“Here, bhikkhu, the uninstructed worldling becomes frightened over an unfrightening matter. For this is frightening to the uninstructed worldling: ‘It might not be, and it might not be for me; it will not be, and it will not be for me.’ But the instructed noble disciple does not become frightened over an unfrightening matter. For this is not frightening to the noble disciple: ‘It might not be, and it might not be for me; it will not be, and it will not be for me.’

“Consciousness, bhikkhu, while standing, might stand engaged with form … engaged with feeling … engaged with perception … engaged with volitional formations; based upon volitional formations, established upon volitional formations, with a sprinkling of delight, it might come to growth, increase, and expansion.

“Bhikkhu, though someone might say: ‘Apart from form, apart from feeling, apart from perception, apart from volitional formations, I will make known the coming and going of consciousness, its passing away and rebirth, its growth, increase, and expansion’—that is impossible.


https://suttacentral.net/sn22.55/en/bodhi

Any form of existence has been compared to faeces, to urine, to pus. Any form of existence is dukkha. Why would anyone want that?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by Ceisiwr »

I quite like the opening of the parallel.

“At that time the Blessed One rose from meditation in the afternoon, came out of the hall and in the shade of the hall sat down on a prepared seat in front of a great assembly. At that time the Blessed One uttered an inspired utterance:

“In the Dharma there is no ‘I’
and also no ‘mine’.
Since there won’t be an ‘I’,
how could ‘mine’ arise?
A monk resolved on this,
will abandon the lower type of fetters.”

Then a certain monk rose up from his seat, bared his right shoulder, knelt on the ground with his right knee and with palms together said to the Buddha: “Blessed One, how is it that:

“‘There is no ‘I’
and also no ‘mine’.
Since there won’t be an ‘I’,
how could ‘mine’ arise?
A monk resolved on this
will abandon the lower type of fetters’?



The Buddha said to the monk: “A foolish worldling, an unlearned being, gives rise to dread and fear on occasions that are not fearful. For a foolish worldling, an unlearned being, it gives rise to fear that: ‘there is no ‘I’,’ that ‘there is no ‘mine’,’ that these two together should not arise.”


https://suttacentral.net/sa64/en/analayo

Quite a blow for Ven. Ṭhānissaro’s “not self strategy” theory.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:21 pm

Quite a blow for Ven. Ṭhānissaro’s “not self strategy” theory.
Why? There is no contradiction there.

You are also again wrongly equating 'existence' with bhava which is 'becoming'.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Coëmgenu
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ven Bodhi, AFAIK, no longer translates bhava as "becoming" and feels that it was a mistake to. I'll have to find the quote.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by Coëmgenu »

Venerable Bodhi, from his introduction to his translation of the Saṃyuttanikāya:
"Bhava, in MLDB, was translated “being.” In seeking an alternative, I had first experimented with “becoming,” but when the shortcomings in this choice were pointed out to me I decided to return to “existence,” used in my earlier translations. Bhava, however, is not “existence” in the sense of the most universal ontological category, that which is shared by everything from the dishes in the kitchen sink to the numbers in a mathematical equation. Existence in the latter sense is covered by the verb atthi and the abstract noun atthitā. Bhava is concrete sentient existence in one of the three realms of existence posited by Buddhist cosmology, a span of life beginning with conception and ending in death. In the formula of dependent origination it is understood to mean both (i) the active side of life that produces rebirth into a particular mode of sentient existence, in other words rebirth-producing kamma; and (ii) the mode of sentient existence that results from such activity."
"MLDB," unless I'm quite mistaken, is "Middle-Length Discourses of the Buddha," no? The Bodhi translation of the Majjhimanikāya.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:24 pm Venerable Bodhi, from his introduction to his translation of the Saṃyuttanikāya:
"Bhava, in MLDB, was translated “being.” In seeking an alternative, I had first experimented with “becoming,” but when the shortcomings in this choice were pointed out to me I decided to return to “existence,” used in my earlier translations. Bhava, however, is not “existence” in the sense of the most universal ontological category, that which is shared by everything from the dishes in the kitchen sink to the numbers in a mathematical equation. Existence in the latter sense is covered by the verb atthi and the abstract noun atthitā. Bhava is concrete sentient existence in one of the three realms of existence posited by Buddhist cosmology, a span of life beginning with conception and ending in death. In the formula of dependent origination it is understood to mean both (i) the active side of life that produces rebirth into a particular mode of sentient existence, in other words rebirth-producing kamma; and (ii) the mode of sentient existence that results from such activity."
"MLDB," unless I'm quite mistaken, is "Middle-Length Discourses of the Buddha," no? The Bodhi translation of the Majjhimanikāya.
He also says that 'existence' is incorrect here which is 'atthi'.
I would usually use the compound 'being-becoming' for bhava since this conveys that all states of being are also becoming otherwise. Becoming has the sense of change.
Bhava is also more fitting in terms of 'bhavana' which means cultivating states of mind and a synonym for meditation. So becoming is closer to me than 'existence' still.
Regarding the thread discussion,the issue to me is of liberation of a subjective field of consciousness from taking on becoming as a sentient being with a nama-rupa.
People argue against this by pointing to the aggregates teaching but that is clearly about consciousness within the six sense bases only i.e that functioning as a result of nama-rupa.
There is no explanation given for the numerous descriptions and similies in the Canon given for objectless consciousness not 'alighting' into a new set of aggregates and taking up a compounded nama-rupa

And why call the path liberation of citta instead of extinction if it were just a cessation?

There is no particular need to invoke the idea of nothingness to explain liberation of mind from the aggregates.
Ontologically, cessation of this level of 'protoconsciousness' (that which gives rise to nama-rupa) would not be possible as it has no beginning, so could not cease as samsara has no beginning.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Coëmgenu
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by Coëmgenu »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:25 amHe also says that 'existence' is incorrect here which is 'atthi'.
Well, he actually, if anything, confirms that "existence" is correct and then clarifies in which way it is correct and in which way it isn't.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:42 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:25 amHe also says that 'existence' is incorrect here which is 'atthi'.
Well, he actually, if anything, confirms that "existence" is correct and then clarifies in which way it is correct and in which way it isn't.
He describes that 'existence' is not an ideal option.
Which is why I would go with 'being-becoming', a compound of two terms he has used to describe the term bhava.
It means 'being engendered by kamma' rather than 'being in itself'.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
pegembara
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by pegembara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:47 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:58 pm
Not normally no. That's the purpose of the path, to liberate consciousness by ending the process of dependent co arising and make it unconditioned.
If it was conditioned then it can’t become permanent and unconditioned. The purpose of the path is for all consciousness to end. For all forms of existence to end.
The delusion of existence ends permanently on arahantship leaving only "Teflon" non-sticky cooled "consciousness". The so called "vinnana adinassanam". The experience of seeing, hearing, feeling etc still remains.

All experiences end at "death" rather than "consciousness" or "Nibbāna-element with no residue left" or the unconditioned.

Confused? Having doubts, uncertainty and coming to no conclusion?

Time for a cappuccino. :smile:
Suppose a person were to remove a hot clay pot from a potter’s kiln and place it down on level ground. Its heat would dissipate right there, and the shards would be left behind.

In the same way, feeling the end of the body approaching, they understand: ‘I feel the end of the body approaching.’ Feeling the end of life approaching, they understand: ‘I feel the end of life approaching.’ They understand: ‘When my body breaks up and my life has come to an end, everything that’s felt, since I no longer take pleasure in it, will become cool right here. Only bodily remains will be left.’

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.51/en/sujato
“And further, a sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die, is unagitated, and is free from longing. He has nothing whereby he would be born. Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die? Not dying, will he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what will he long? It was in reference to this that it was said, ‘He has been stilled where the currents of supposition do not flow. And when the currents of supposition do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace.’

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN140.html
“What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.

“Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant … completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.
"Or he doesn't assume form to be the self, but he assumes the self as possessing form... form as in the self... self as in form... or feeling to be the self... the self as possessing feeling... feeling as in the self... self as in feeling... or perception to be the self... the self as possessing perception... perception as in the self... self as in perception... or fabrications to be the self... the self as possessing fabrications... fabrications as in the self... self as in fabrications... or consciousness to be the self... the self as possessing consciousness... consciousness as in the self... self as in consciousness.

"Or he doesn't assume form to be the self... but he may have a view such as this: 'This self is the same as the cosmos. This I will be after death, constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change.' This eternalist view is a fabrication... Or... he may have a view such as this: 'I would not be, neither would there be what is mine. I will not be, neither will there be what is mine.' This annihilationist view is a fabrication... Or... he may be doubtful & uncertain, having come to no conclusion with regard to the true Dhamma. That doubt, uncertainty, & coming-to-no-conclusion is a fabrication.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Last edited by pegembara on Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

TheSynergist wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:13 pm

I agree with you that liberating consciousness is the goal of the path. But here's my interpretation of what "liberated consciousness" means, using the Buddha's light analogy -- What does light that not have an object to reflect upon look like? Darkness, pitch blackness, like the space between stars in a night sky. The photons are there, but they don't appear. I'd understand a non-manifest consciousness to be like that invisible photon.
Yes, that is a good analogy. Non-manifestive consciousness is what is described in the canon. What would the experience of it be like? Impossible to really know until it has been realized.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by Coëmgenu »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:48 amHe describes that 'existence' is not an ideal option.
Which is why I would go with 'being-becoming', a compound of two terms he has used to describe the term bhava.
The problem with "being-becoming" is that the word doesn't mean anything. You might as well have just kept it as "bhava" because a native English speaker has nothing in their mental lexicon to correspond to "being-becoming." Ven Bodhi, if you'll forgive me wanting to be precise, actually voices the opinion in that section of text that "existence" is the proper way to translate "bhava." He says one way in which "bhava" is not "existence." He says that "bhava" does not mean "existence" in the sense that chairs and objects, etc., exist. It means a particular existence, or a "concrete sentient existence in one of the three realms of existence." He is using "existence" for bhava all through that section of text. If you have a preferred way to render it, that is fine. I will only point out that "being-becoming" isn't really "English."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by sphairos »

I think awareness is God :yingyang: :yingyang: :yingyang:
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How true are your ways?
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:24 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:48 amHe describes that 'existence' is not an ideal option.
Which is why I would go with 'being-becoming', a compound of two terms he has used to describe the term bhava.
The problem with "being-becoming" is that the word doesn't mean anything. You might as well have just kept it as "bhava" because a native English speaker has nothing in their mental lexicon to correspond to "being-becoming." Ven Bodhi, if you'll forgive me wanting to be precise, actually voices the opinion in that section of text that "existence" is the proper way to translate "bhava." He says one way in which "bhava" is not "existence." He says that "bhava" does not mean "existence" in the sense that chairs and objects, etc., exist. It means a particular existence, or a "concrete sentient existence in one of the three realms of existence." He is using "existence" for bhava all through that section of text. If you have a preferred way to render it, that is fine. I will only point out that "being-becoming" isn't really "English."
Words convey concepts which they may or may not accurately represent. This is one problem with translating and for words in general. For the work of a translator he has many aims and accuracy is high up but also has to be balanced with fluidity of readership.
The fact that Bodhi has wavered shows that there is no exact English words for the term.
'Being-becoming' as a compound term would be too unwieldy I agree for continuous use. But it is still more accurate than 'existence' which has to be qualified.
Elsewhere Bodhi has commented on the centrality of anicca and how even when he renders 'mental states' that in his words as I recall "the term state has to be removed from it's connotation of staticity".

So yes, the term 'bhava' may be easier to use untranslated but the definitions have to include that it points to becoming otherwise - anicca. This isn't always clear with the definition of existence since people posit the idea of eternal existence whereas we are clear that any modes of created being become otherwise, hence they become.
This is why I feel the term becoming is the most accurate and I disagree with the people who suggested to him it had shortcomings and got him to rethink it, he was correct beforehand in my view.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:48 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:21 pm

Quite a blow for Ven. Ṭhānissaro’s “not self strategy” theory.
Why? There is no contradiction there.
His theory is that the Buddha never definitively said "there is no I", but in the northern texts he does just that.
You are also again wrongly equating 'existence' with bhava which is 'becoming'.
Existence is a perfectly acceptable translation which captures the meaning. A state of be-ing.
So yes, the term 'bhava' may be easier to use untranslated but the definitions have to include that it points to becoming otherwise - anicca.
Becoming otherwise isn't bhava, since everything that comes prior to bhava is also becoming otherwise.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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