Rain due to Gods ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
un8-
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by un8- »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:51 pm Rebirth is part of that.
Sure, and so are devas, including rain devas, and since according to you saddha is faith in the Buddha's awakening, and since you have not presented any evidence that said sutta is fake/edited, you are not a Buddhist by your own definition since you reject the rain Devas which means you reject the Buddha's awakening by your definition of saddha. Do you also reject the devas that created the stars in the universe with their craving or are those suttas fake too?

See, you're no different than any other religious fanatic. If you actually used the dhamma to improve your life, as it was intended, instead of using it criticize other people's beliefs then I wouldn't care. The problem is that you're a zealot who gatekeeps based on their very fickle interpretation. Just stop gatekeeping so much, and use the dhamma for practicality purposes as intended.

Like I said, I doubt you actually understand the dhamma as it was taught.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Maybe the gods ferry water up to the heavens for it to rain. What we obvserve is "the water cycle," but it is possible that gods have something to do with it that we're nor aware of. It's a difficult bit of scripture, because it brings to mind tiny cherub angels with pudgy cheeks and tiny wings flying down to a pool of water with a watering can and then ascending upwards, repeating this ad infinitum as if on Jacob's ladder. Maybe it's a teaching of the pandits, as in SN 22.99, those who the Buddha agrees with. Why he agrees and does not dispute what the pandits declare is of course the real issue here. Does he truly agree with "the pandits" of his day, whatever that would mean; or does he merely not bother to argue cosmology and elements of proto-science and other things that the pandits could be imagined as agreeing upon as existing or not existing. It also has to be noted that there is no indication of what exactly it is in the sutta that the pandits are agreeing as existing or not existing.

When Ven Candrakīrti paraphrases the Buddha in his Prasannapadā commentary to the MMK, he paraphrases scripture parallel to SN 22.94: "The unenlightened person is at variance with me; I am not at variance with the unenlightened person," and in the Pāli sutta the word "unenlightened person" is actually the word "world." A sentient being, after all, is a world. I take this to mean that the world experienced by the unenlightened person is more or less the same world as experienced by the Buddha, but this is a particular interpretation. There are more ways to read that sutta.

When the buddha-eye is in operation and the sun is witnessed, I think likely there is seen a massive explosion in the sky rather than a sun-chariot. Many in the Dharmic religions though will claim that when the divine eye opens, suddenly Sumeru, the sun and moon chariots, bhūmaṇḍala, and the gods in their heavens are visible. It's a matter for awakened persons to discover.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

un8- wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:02 pm
Sure, and so are devas, including rain devas, and since according to you saddha is faith in the Buddha's awakening, and since you have not presented any evidence that said sutta is fake/edited, you are not a Buddhist by your own definition since you reject the rain Devas which means you reject the Buddha's awakening by your definition of saddha. Do you also reject the devas that created the stars in the universe with their craving or are those suttas fake too?
What do rain devas have to do with the Buddha's awakening, suffering and it's cessation? In my view they have nothing to do with it, and since we are told that the Buddha only taught what was relevant to awakening this makes me question the sutta. The other possibility is that this is a recording of the Buddha speaking to someone who does accept those things.
See, you're no different than any other religious fanatic. If you actually used the dhamma to improve your life, as it was intended, instead of using it criticize other people's beliefs then I wouldn't care. The problem is that you're a zealot who gatekeeps based on their very fickle interpretation. Just stop gatekeeping so much, and use the dhamma for practicality purposes as intended.

Like I said, I doubt you actually understand the dhamma as it was taught.
You know little about me so you aren't really qualified to comment upon if it has improved my life or not, nor do you know if I have had any insight or not. You are also in no position to be offering me advice. Pointing out the many flaws in your numerous bad arguments does not make one a religious fanatic, nor does pointing to the very definition of what it means to be a Buddhist. If someone told me they were a Christian but they did not believe in God, I would make similar arguments despite not being a Christian (and so not being fanatical about it).
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by un8- »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:13 pm

What do rain devas have to do with the Buddha's awakening, suffering and it's cessation? In my view they have nothing to do with it, and since we are told that the Buddha only taught what was relevant to awakening this makes me question the sutta. The other possibility is that this is a recording of the Buddha speaking to someone who does accept those things.
Your opinion is not evidence that the sutta is fake. I'm simply repeating to you what you said earlier to me, that since you doubt something the Buddha said is true, you're not a Buddhist because that means you doubt the Buddha and his awakening. That's your interpretation, not mine, so good luck fighting with yourself.

You know little about me so you aren't really qualified to comment upon if it has approved my life or not, nor do you know if I have had any insight or not. Pointing out the many flaws in your numerous bad arguments does not make one a religious fanatic, nor does pointing to the very definition of what it means to be a Buddhist. If someone told me they were a Christian but they did not believe in God, I would make similar arguments despite not being a Christian (and so not being fanatical about it).
The Buddha said you can judge if someone is fit to be listened to by judging their morality, and since you use fickle interpretations to gatekeep and criticize others, that's enough for me to doubt your understanding of the dhamma.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

un8- wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:18 pm
Your opinion is not evidence that the sutta is fake. I'm simply repeating to you what you said earlier to me, that since you doubt something the Buddha said is true, you're not a Buddhist because that means you doubt the Buddha and his awakening. That's your interpretation, not mine, so good luck fighting with yourself.
What makes it questionable is that it has no discernible relevance to awakening, and since I accept the premise that the Buddha only taught what was relevant, it makes me question the sutta. Assuming that you share the same premise, you then need to show how it is relevant. If you do not share that premise then we are just going to talk past each other. Do you think the Buddha only taught what was relevant to awakening, or not?
The Buddha said you can judge if someone is fit to be listened to by judging their morality, and since you use fickle interpretations to gatekeep and criticize others, that's enough for me to doubt your understanding of the dhamma.
It is not immoral to criticise your arguments.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
un8-
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by un8- »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:23 pm

What makes it questionable is in that it has no discernible relevance to awakening, and since I accept the premise that the Buddha only taught what was relevant, it makes me question the sutta. Assuming that you share the same premise, you then need to show how it is relevant. If you do not share that premise, then we are just going to talk past each other. Do you think the Buddha only taught what was relevant to awakening, or not?
I focus on what is practical and knowable, I don't hold on to fanatical dogmatic views for the purpose of attacking others on forums. Other people's views are not my concern, I simply share my understanding. However, certain people like yourself and doodoot make it their mission to be zealots and impose their interpretations on others rather than simply sharing it in the pool of interpretations. You crossed the line when you took it upon yourself to disqualify me and others like me and trying to make yourself an authority by gatekeeping the community like when you told Nirodh to go to another forum because of his interpretation. So that is why you're being grilled right now.
It is not immoral to criticise your arguments.
Not according to Buddhist morality, the Buddha said when the Dhamma is grasped incorrectly and used as a weapon, it cleaves the wielders own head off. Which seems to be quite true.

Well, I've said my part, good luck to you.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

un8- wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:31 pm
I focus on what is practical and knowable,
Rebirth is knowable in much the same way as nibbāna and Jhāna are.

I don't hold on to fanatical dogmatic views for the purpose of attacking others on forums. Other people's views are not my concern, I simply share my understanding. However, certain people like yourself and doodoot make it their mission to be zealots and impose their interpretations on others rather than simply sharing it in the pool of interpretations.
But you are concerned with the views of others. Mine seems to be a particular bugbear for you at the moment. I'm not imposing that view on you though. I'm not the Buddhist pope, and I don't have a gun to your head. I'm no one really. I don't agree with you though, no. I think you are still in the early days, fumbling around somewhat. I also don't think that all interpretations are equally valid. Some interpretations of the Dhamma are quite clearly wrong.

You crossed the line when you took it upon yourself to disqualify me and others like me and trying to make yourself an authority by gatekeeping the community like when you told Nirodh to go to another forum because of his interpretation. So that is why you're being grilled right now.
I'd hardly call it a grilling. Mostly you are complaining. Yes, I don't think people who reject rebirth are Buddhists. I don't think atheists can be Muslims either.
Not according to Buddhist morality, the Buddha said when the Dhamma is grasped incorrectly and used as a weapon, it cleaves the wielders own head off. Which seems to be quite true.

Well, I've said my part, good luck to you.
This is assuming that I am debating for the fun of it.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
TRobinson465
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by TRobinson465 »

Yes. Well going back to the topic. I don't think rain being caused by devas contradicts the scientific explanation of rain. The Vipaka sutta says mental derangement is caused by breaking the 5th precept in a prior existence. But of course scientists say it's the result of a combination of factors such as DNA, brain chemistry, and developmental issues.

But these aren't mutually exclusive. They answer different questions. The science explains how mental disorders work whereas the Vipaka sutta would explain why it happens to that particular person.

I think it's similar with devas and weather. As devas are invisible to the physical eye but not the dhamma eye scientists would not be able to observe the influence certain devas have on the weather and would only be able to observe the natural causes. Science may explain how rain works but it's perfectly possible devas play in a role in when it rains precisely. Especially since even with modern science scientists are still not able to forecast exactly when itll rain to the tee.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

TRobinson465 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:45 pm Yes. Well going back to the topic. I don't think rain being caused by devas contradicts the scientific explanation of rain. The Vipaka sutta says mental derangement is caused by breaking the 5th precept in a prior existence. But of course scientists say it's the result of a combination of factors such as DNA, brain chemistry, and developmental issues.

But these aren't mutually exclusive. They answer different questions. The science explains how mental disorders work whereas the Vipaka sutta would explain why it happens to that particular person.

I think it's similar with devas and weather. As devas are invisible to the physical eye but not the dhamma eye scientists would not be able to observe the influence certain devas have on the weather and would only be able to observe the natural causes. Science may explain how rain works but it's perfectly possible devas play in a role in when it rains precisely. Especially since even with modern science scientists are still not able to forecast exactly when itll rain to the tee.
It's not something we can currently test for, and so it doesn't form part of the hypothesis (now a theory) regarding the cause of rain. It is possible that devas are behind it, but it seems to be an unnecessary explanation based on the current evidence. Regardless, personally I don't see how the cause of rain is something the Buddha would ever be interested in. I don't think he was interested in science, or proto-science.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mikenz66
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by mikenz66 »

TRobinson465 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:45 pm But these aren't mutually exclusive. They answer different questions. The science explains how mental disorders work whereas the Vipaka sutta would explain why it happens to that particular person.
Thank you for bringing some sanity to this discussion. These arguments seem to arise when there is an instance that there is only one type of knowledge, and trying to force all knowledge into one box (often a "science" box).
Mythology is an important aspect of the Suttas, and should be taken seriously on its own terms.

Bhikkhu Sujato's talks on mythology might be a good place to start:

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/aj ... fane/13132
https://buddhistlibrary.org.au/events/b ... e-profane/


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TRobinson465
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by TRobinson465 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:49 pm
Regardless, personally I don't see how the cause of rain is something the Buddha would ever be interested in. I don't think he was interested in science, or proto-science.
I agree with this. It does indeed seem out of character for him. So I think skepticism about the sutta's authenticity is justified.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

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TRobinson465 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:41 pm It does indeed seem out of character for him.
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by TRobinson465 »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:00 am
TRobinson465 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:41 pm It does indeed seem out of character for him.
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I did not mean it was out of character for the Buddha to talk about devas. I meant it was out of character for the Buddha to talk about the weather or why it rains. I'm just basing it on my unenlightened opinion, but I woulda expected him to at least refuse to answer twice or something for something as pointless as that. Although I guess it's also possible he didn't want people to criticize him as not knowing why it rained so that's why he answered rather than pointing out how useless that question is.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by cappuccino »

TRobinson465 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:45 pm Science may explain how rain works but it's perfectly possible devas play in a role in when it rains precisely.
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Aloka
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by Aloka »

Some reading suggestions:

"Superstitions and Dogmas": from " What Buddhists Believe" by Venerable K. Sri Dhammananda Maha Thera.

https://www.budsas.org/ebud/whatbudbeliev/328.htm

and also:

"Indulging in Superstition - a Buddhist Reflection" by Tibetan Buddhist monk and teacher Karma Yeshe Rabgye.

https://insighttimer.com/blog/indulging ... eflection/


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