Rain due to Gods ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
arkaprava
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Rain due to Gods ?

Post by arkaprava »

At Sāvatthī. Seated to one side, that mendicant said to the Buddha: “Sir, what is the cause, what is the reason why sometimes it rains?” “Mendicant, there are what are called gods of the rainy clouds. Sometimes they think: ‘Why don’t we revel in our own kind of enjoyment?’ Then, in accordance with their wish, it becomes rainy. This is the cause, this is the reason why sometimes it rains.” - SN 32.57

To give an example, the average rainfall of West Bengal is 4178 mm, while that of Rajasthan is 988 mm. An explanation is West Bengal , due to being closer to the Bay of Bengal , which is not the case for Rajasthan. Now to assume that rain happens due to gods leads to all sord of conclusions. Do the gods don't want it to rain in certain parts of the land, etc.
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Gwi
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by Gwi »

Rain generally falls due to
natural factors (melting).
In the Suttå, rain may also
fall because of the cloud devå
(the heavenly being who dwells in the clouds).
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
Inedible
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by Inedible »

If you really want to know about weather, I suggest getting books about meteorology. Current understanding will be more useful.
Mr. Seek
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by Mr. Seek »

Whether you believe white coats or brown coats, it's still the same. Better to not believe anyone. Don't disbelieve either. No accepting, no rejecting, no ignoring, no supposing.
un8-
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by un8- »

I wonder if the people on this forum who harp on those who don't believe in rebirth, because they use the argument "if you don't believe in rebirth you don't have faith in the Buddha", if they also believe that rain is caused by gods.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

un8- wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:52 pm I wonder if the people on this forum who harp on those who don't believe in rebirth, because they use the argument "if you don't believe in rebirth you don't have faith in the Buddha", if they also believe that rain is caused by gods.
Do we have to accept everything in the suttas because we accept rebirth? If so, why?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

This god must love Wales.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
form
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by form »

Cloud devas
un8-
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by un8- »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:03 pm
un8- wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:52 pm I wonder if the people on this forum who harp on those who don't believe in rebirth, because they use the argument "if you don't believe in rebirth you don't have faith in the Buddha", if they also believe that rain is caused by gods.
Do we have to accept everything in the suttas because we accept rebirth? If so, why?
Wasn't it your argument that one can't believe in Nibbana without also believing in rebirth? Why do you stop at rain gods then?
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

un8- wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:01 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:03 pm
un8- wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:52 pm I wonder if the people on this forum who harp on those who don't believe in rebirth, because they use the argument "if you don't believe in rebirth you don't have faith in the Buddha", if they also believe that rain is caused by gods.
Do we have to accept everything in the suttas because we accept rebirth? If so, why?
Wasn't it your argument that one can't believe in Nibbana without also believing in rebirth? Why do you stop at rain gods then?
Rebirth is essential to the Dhamma. Without it the whole thing falls apart. The same with nibbāna. Both form part of the Buddha's insight. Rain gods, 32 marks and others don't fall into that category.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
un8-
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by un8- »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:10 pm
un8- wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:01 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:03 pm

Do we have to accept everything in the suttas because we accept rebirth? If so, why?
Wasn't it your argument that one can't believe in Nibbana without also believing in rebirth? Why do you stop at rain gods then?
Rebirth is essential to the Dhamma. Without it the whole thing falls apart. The same with nibbāna. Both form part of the Buddha's insight. Rain gods, 32 marks and others don't fall into that category.
No it isn't, but even if it was, why do you reject rain gods if you accept rebirth? Both are things you can't confirm without supernormal powers, yet you pick one over the other. You believe one thing you don't actually know, over another thing you don't actually know. Seems hypocritical.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

un8- wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:15 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:10 pm
un8- wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:01 pm

Wasn't it your argument that one can't believe in Nibbana without also believing in rebirth? Why do you stop at rain gods then?
Rebirth is essential to the Dhamma. Without it the whole thing falls apart. The same with nibbāna. Both form part of the Buddha's insight. Rain gods, 32 marks and others don't fall into that category.
No it isn't, but even if it was, why do you reject rain gods if you accept rebirth? Both are things you can't confirm without supernormal powers, yet you pick one over the other. You believe one thing you don't actually know, over another thing you don't actually know. Seems hypocritical.
It's perfectly possible for the Buddha to have taught rebirth and for the compilers of the canon to have added their own spin, for popular consumption. It's interesting that this appears in the AN, which I believe was aimed at new converts. What would be ridiculous would be to reject rebirth because I haven't experienced it, whilst simultaneously believing that nibbāna is real and true. Something else I have never experienced. Perhaps a case of cognitive dissonance would be at play there? And yes, the Dhamma makes little sense without rebirth. A point you seem rather stuck on, due to your aversion.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
un8-
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by un8- »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:21 pm
un8- wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:15 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:10 pm

Rebirth is essential to the Dhamma. Without it the whole thing falls apart. The same with nibbāna. Both form part of the Buddha's insight. Rain gods, 32 marks and others don't fall into that category.
No it isn't, but even if it was, why do you reject rain gods if you accept rebirth? Both are things you can't confirm without supernormal powers, yet you pick one over the other. You believe one thing you don't actually know, over another thing you don't actually know. Seems hypocritical.
It's perfectly possible for the Buddha to have taught rebirth and for the compilers of the canon to have added their own spin, for popular consumption. It's interesting that this appears in the AN, which I believe was aimed at new converts. What would be ridiculous would be to reject rebirth because I haven't experienced it, whilst simultaneously believing that nibbāna is real and true. Something else I have never experienced. Perhaps a case of cognitive dissonance there.
"Fake sutta" seems like a convenient excuse that people here resort to defend their lazy thinking.

It's more congruent for someone to believe what they know over picking and choosing to believe from topics they don't actually know.

Fyi, I never said I believe Nibbana is true, I said Nibbana is likely to be more true because it pertains to feelings, not rebirth and not devas. But again, that's besides the point, you're trying to deflect back to the old topic in order to cover up your hypocrisy. Even if we assume that rebirth belief is required for Nibbana, you're still being a hypocrite for having faith in one subject you don't actually know over another subject you don't actually know.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

un8- wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:26 pm [

"Fake sutta" seems like a convenient excuse that people here resort to defend their lazy thinking.
Well the other option is that the Buddha really did think that rain was caused by gods. I'm not adverse to this interpretation, but I lean more towards it being the product of monks and nuns appealing to the laity. The same as we see with the 32 marks of a great man.


Fyi, I never said I believe Nibbana true, I said Nibbana is likely to be more true because it pertains to feelings, not rebirth and not devas. But again, that's besides the point, you're trying to deflect back to the old topic in order to cover up your hypocrisy. Even if we assume that rebirth belief is required for Nibbana, you're still being a hypocrite for having faith in one subject you don't actually know over another subject you don't actually know.
You have faith in the Buddha, and so accept nibbāna as being a truth that the Buddha knew. If you don't have that, i struggle to see what you are practicing for. The Buddha referred to nibbāna countless times, just as he did rebirth. Kamma and rebirth form part of the 2nd Noble Truth, and is a teaching found across all known canons and early schools. That we are born, die and are born again in a cycle of unending misery is what he taught. If you reject rebirth, it's because you do not have sufficient faith in the Buddha and if you do not have that then your practice won't come to much. It's as simple as that. Usually in modern times this lack of faith in the Buddha is due to some crass scientism, mostly found amongst those who have little understanding of science or epistemology in general. For myself, since I have faith in the Buddha and his awakening it follows that I have faith in the reality of both rebirth and it's escape via nibbāna. That doesn't then mean I have to accept every single thing that we see in the suttas or āgamas. There is no logical necessity that would drive me to do that and as I say, it is perfectly possible for the Buddha to have taught rebirth and for the texts to have undergone editing in order to better appeal to new converts (competing with other religions, as they were).
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
DiamondNgXZ
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Re: Rain due to Gods ?

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

un8- wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:26 pm
"Fake sutta" seems like a convenient excuse that people here resort to defend their lazy thinking.

It's more congruent for someone to believe what they know over picking and choosing to believe from topics they don't actually know.

Fyi, I never said I believe Nibbana is true, I said Nibbana is likely to be more true because it pertains to feelings, not rebirth and not devas. But again, that's besides the point, you're trying to deflect back to the old topic in order to cover up your hypocrisy. Even if we assume that rebirth belief is required for Nibbana, you're still being a hypocrite for having faith in one subject you don't actually know over another subject you don't actually know.
1. There's independent evidences for rebirth, google reincarnation evidences. There's plenty of books written on it.

2. Since we dunno what devas are according to science yet, it's possible to interpret rain gods in many ways, or maybe not at all, since most likely most interpretations would be wrong and thus a waste of time. As far as science of metrology is concerned, the weather is still unpredictable, so we cannot rule out rain gods as causation sometimes for rains.

3. Nibbana is not feelings, there's cessation of feelings in parinibbana, after the death of arahant.
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