Anti-tantric passage in MN 22?

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Bundokji
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Re: Anti-tantric passage in MN 22?

Post by Bundokji »

Mr. Seek wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:25 pm "For a person to indulge in sensual pleasures without sensual passion, without sensual perception, without sensual thinking: That isn’t possible."
The above passage would be anti-tantric onlyif tantra teaches that you can engage in sensual pleasure without sensual passion, perception or thinking.

From my limited knowledge, the most common understanding of tantra seems to be that indulging in sensuality or what is prohibited generates dispassion if done correctly, considering that suppression of desires can be a cause to inflame them. I have never studied tantra systematically, but usually most critiques of traditions or schools of thought are often based on a distorted version of what the teachings are.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
auto
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Re: Anti-tantric passage in MN 22?

Post by auto »

Mr. Seek wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:25 pm "For a person to indulge in sensual pleasures without sensual passion, without sensual perception, without sensual thinking: That isn’t possible." -- from MN 22, translation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. What do you think of this passage? I feel like it's pretty darn clear, without even looking at the Pali text.
That above passage from mn 22 is a response to a claim that it is possible to indulge in sensual pleasures without sensual passion = Without there being cessation of consciousness.
..
It means any action, lifting your arm, standing up, you can't do them without first thinking about doing so.. and cessation is involved.
Rather it is a strike towards the idea of seamlessness or everything happens on their own, no doer etc, that the indulging in sensual pleasures doesn't cause interruption in life-continuum.
Sutta says,
https://suttacentral.net/mn22/en/sujato wrote:They don’t realize the goal for which they memorized them.
Yassa catthāya dhammaṁ pariyāpuṇanti tañcassa atthaṁ nānubhonti.
the goal is about ending the suffering. Ending rebirth. Cessation is part of it.

there is a simile,
https://suttacentral.net/mn22/en/sujato wrote:resulting in death or deadly pain.
So tatonidānaṁ maraṇaṁ vā nigaccheyya maraṇamattaṁ vā dukkhaṁ.
death - when the act causes giving up the path, which means not seeing the cessation and fail to concentrate on the fruit. Deadly pain is that you are not able to give up sensual pleasure, but it can be cured and you won't quit the path.

The lasting harm and suffering is when not seeing cessation and drop out of the path. It concerns the path and its fruit.
https://suttacentral.net/mn22/en/sujato wrote: and those teachings lead to their lasting harm and suffering.
Tesaṁ te dhammā duggahitā dīgharattaṁ ahitāya dukkhāya saṁvattanti.
Why is that?
Taṁ kissa hetu?
Because of their wrong grasp of the teachings.
Duggahitattā, bhikkhave, dhammānaṁ.
auto
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Re: Anti-tantric passage in MN 22?

Post by auto »

tharpa wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:44 pm Absolutely, nothing tricky about it. So called "Buddhist" tantra is directly opposed to the Buddha's teachings.
your budhism
auto
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Re: Anti-tantric passage in MN 22?

Post by auto »

Bundokji wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:55 pm I have never studied tantra systematically, but usually most critiques of traditions or schools of thought are often based on a distorted version of what the teachings are.
True. There are no 'veins' and methuna can't be used to get rid of methuna comes to my mind of the more general responses.
Besides that, the giving up is a function of wisdom,
https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato wrote: “You understand something that can be known with the eye of wisdom.”
“Neyyaṁ kho, āvuso, dhammaṁ paññācakkhunā pajānātī”ti.

“What is the purpose of wisdom?”
“Paññā panāvuso, kimatthiyā”ti?

“The purpose of wisdom is direct knowledge, complete understanding, and giving up.”
“Paññā kho, āvuso, abhiññatthā pariññatthā pahānatthā”ti.
Abstinence, sense restraint is sīla.
Holding off generates desire what results in concentration what endows the base of iddhi(power).
When mind is developed then you know what you need, form an environment what can be cultivated for visions connected with the illusory, wicked body in the hollow dimension of death to pacify, concur it.
Something like that, in my opinion.
form
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Re: Anti-tantric passage in MN 22?

Post by form »

The answer will be same as that if sex is no good poll. There are two choices, yes or yes. :mrgreen:
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Gwi
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Re: Anti-tantric passage in MN 22?

Post by Gwi »

Mr. Seek wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:25 pm "For a person to indulge in sensual pleasures without sensual passion, without sensual perception, without sensual thinking: That isn’t possible." -- from MN 22, translation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. What do you think of this passage? I feel like it's pretty darn clear, without even looking at the Pali text.

Would it then be correct to assume that most tantric practices are not in accordance with the Dhamma? This pretty much single-handedly DESTROYS the authority and reputation of one whole "Buddhist tradition" (not going to name it), with its many sects and centuries of history.

Also, pretty sure we can find a passage that says "one who isn't free of sensual passion himself cannot possibly free another [from it]". There was something like that in the suttas.
Tatra (read: ta-[nk]tra) is an
ancient treatment method,
such as acupuncture treatment methods.
It has nothing to do with buddhism.
Same with shaolin, what does it have
To do with buddhism??

That doesn't mean you can't use tatric
or shaolin martial arts. However, it has
nothing to do with buddhism!

Same with the story of the monkey stealth fiction.

Im talking about Buddhå Gotamå's teaching,
Not another. If non-theravādå think that from
Buddhå Gotamå, ofc 100.000 asangkheyyā
+ 100.000 kappā % = WRONG.
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
auto
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Re: Anti-tantric passage in MN 22?

Post by auto »

Gwi wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:29 pm Tatra (read: ta-[nk]tra) is an
ancient treatment method,
such as acupuncture treatment methods.
It has nothing to do with buddhism.
Same with shaolin, what does it have
To do with buddhism??

That doesn't mean you can't use tatric
or shaolin martial arts. However, it has
nothing to do with buddhism!

Same with the story of the monkey stealth fiction.

Im talking about Buddhå Gotamå's teaching,
Not another. If non-theravādå think that from
Buddhå Gotamå, ofc 100.000 asangkheyyā
+ 100.000 kappā % = WRONG.
what are you smoking? it would take you very little effort to just search the word and get informed.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Anti-tantric passage in MN 22?

Post by Coëmgenu »

"vs Tanktra" was my favourite Godzilla movie.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
alicem
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Re: Anti-tantric passage in MN 22?

Post by alicem »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:13 pm
Mr. Seek wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:25 pmWould it then be correct to assume that most tantric practices are not in accordance with the Dhamma?
I'll give a more detailed answer to this, because the answer is actually "no," because most tantra doesn't involve acts of debauchery or sex. Some tantra unambiguously does. These that do are very infamous tantric practices for a reason and come from specific times and places in India that I don't know in a lot of detail.

In the Tendai sect, there are no sexual practices to speak of that I am aware of at all. If sexual tantra is practiced therein, it's a big secret. The Shingon sect has a ​branch disassociated from Koyasan who are considered heretics. They practice sexual tantra. All of the rest of the sexual tantras are Tibetan, and these are in the minority.

What esoteric Buddhism, including the tantras, mostly concerns itself with are sacred gestures, sacred words, sacred poses, and secret (sacred) identities. That Mahāvairocana Buddha is the secret true identity of Prabhūtaratna Buddha in the Lotus Sūtra, for instance, is an esoteric reading of the sūtra. The bodily yogas designed to point toward Bodhi with energy work and the cakras, etc., are esoteric practices. The mantras, secret sacred syllables supposedly conducive to Bodhi, are likewise.

"Most tantric practice" is actually meditation. The gist ​of "sexual tantra" is that you're supposedly engaged in deep meditation during the sex. Now, this is obviously unacceptable as a form of "meditation" outside of these texts that have such practices. However, given that most tantric meditation is not done while having sex, the quoted sutta material does not actually establish the majority of non-sexual tantric practices as not in accordance.
:goodpost:

I don't understand why some seem to have a burning desire to see Mahayana "DESTROYED" or discredited, without ever having studied the actual diverse history of thought and practice that actually makes up Mahayana. Chauvinism is unbecoming.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Anti-tantric passage in MN 22?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Well, "Vajrayāna" is only Mahāyāna by its own description of itself too. Most wouldn't care to differentiate between different things that they don't like though!
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
shuka
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Re: Anti-tantric passage in MN 22?

Post by shuka »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:13 pm
Mr. Seek wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:25 pmWould it then be correct to assume that most tantric practices are not in accordance with the Dhamma?
I'll give a more detailed answer to this, because the answer is actually "no," because most tantra doesn't involve acts of debauchery or sex. Some tantra unambiguously does. These that do are very infamous tantric practices for a reason and come from specific times and places in India that I don't know in a lot of detail.

In the Tendai sect, there are no sexual practices to speak of that I am aware of at all. If sexual tantra is practiced therein, it's a big secret. The Shingon sect has a ​branch disassociated from Koyasan who are considered heretics. They practice sexual tantra. All of the rest of the sexual tantras are Tibetan, and these are in the minority.

What esoteric Buddhism, including the tantras, mostly concerns itself with are sacred gestures, sacred words, sacred poses, and secret (sacred) identities. That Mahāvairocana Buddha is the secret true identity of Prabhūtaratna Buddha in the Lotus Sūtra, for instance, is an esoteric reading of the sūtra. The bodily yogas designed to point toward Bodhi with energy work and the cakras, etc., are esoteric practices. The mantras, secret sacred syllables supposedly conducive to Bodhi, are likewise.

"Most tantric practice" is actually meditation. The gist ​of "sexual tantra" is that you're supposedly engaged in deep meditation during the sex. Now, this is obviously unacceptable as a form of "meditation" outside of these texts that have such practices. However, given that most tantric meditation is not done while having sex, the quoted sutta material does not actually establish the majority of non-sexual tantric practices as not in accordance.
Do Tendai, Shingon or other Mahayana texts from Japan have teachings on Cakras?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Anti-tantric passage in MN 22?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Yes, but not in the same way. I associate the late-stage cakra theory with paramedical proto-science, or kinds of Buddhism where it is said that you physically transform your body by manipulating the winds through the cakras. I've never heard of anything like that in Shingon or Tendai. I can PM you in a bit or something. It's not really on-topic for the forum.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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