Are the aggregates dukkha?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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mjaviem
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by mjaviem »

nirodh27 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:59 pm ...
Thanks again for your beneficial answer, it was necessary this explanation to understand what you meant in your previous post and to review my beliefs.

My intention was not to enter into metaphysics. I just wanted to say that we don't create this characteristic of things. It's not that they are unsatisfactory because we want them to be so. They are unsatisfactory due to another reason. I said it was so because it is part of them to be like that (again, didn't mean metaphysics, I agree we only perceive them and can't "reach their nature" beyond our experience). You say the reason is our wish for them to be otherwise, to be different. I agree with this, I agree our wish for them to be permanent makes them unsatisfactory and not fit but this very "reaction" to our wish is not created by us. This reaction of that as soon as we expect something to be permanent it becomes unsatisfactory is not created by us. It's there, latent, independent of our wish for things to be satisfactory. We can't make things to not react in this way. It's law, it's Dhamma, the way the world is.

It's true that if we remove the wish for things to be otherwise, remove the wish for things to be satisfactory, the unsatisfactoriness dissapears but this is not here in this world. This is only having escaped it. In this world things react with unsatisfactoriness when seeking the opposite. The danger is still here, we don't make it disappear, We can only escape it and find safety.

I believe the Buddha directly knew things are anicca, dukkha and anatta so there must be something there to be seen directly... :candle:
If There Were No... (SN 35.18) wrote: “Bhikkhus, if there were no gratification in forms, beings would not become enamoured with them; but because there is gratification in forms, beings become enamoured with them. If there were no danger in forms, beings would not experience revulsion towards them; but because there is danger in forms, beings experience revulsion towards them. If there were no escape from forms, beings would not escape from them; but because there is an escape from forms, beings escape from them.

“Bhikkhus, if there were no gratification in sounds … … in odours … in tastes … in tactile objects … in mental phenomena, beings would not become enamoured with it … but because there is an escape from mental phenomena, beings escape from it.

“So long, bhikkhus, as beings have not directly known as they really are the gratification as gratification, the danger as danger, and the escape as escape in the case of these six external sense bases, they have not escaped from this world with its devas, Mara, and Brahma, from this generation with its ascetics and brahmins, its devas and humans; they have not become detached from it, released from it, nor do they dwell with a mind rid of barriers. But when beings have directly known all this as it really is, then they have escaped from this world with its devas and humans … they have become detached from it, released from it, and they dwell with a mind rid of barriers.”
... householders, you should train yourselves thus: ‘How can we from time to time enter and dwell in the rapture of solitude?‘... —AN 5.176 Pītisutta.

Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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nirodh27
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by nirodh27 »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:49 pm Can there be aggregates without clinging to them?
SN22.48
“And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates? Whatever kind of form there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: this is called the form aggregate. Whatever kind of feeling there is … this is called the feeling aggregate. Whatever kind of perception there is … this is called the perception aggregate. Whatever kind of volitional formations there are … these are called the volitional formations aggregate. Whatever kind of consciousness there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: this is called the consciousness aggregate. These, bhikkhus, are called the five aggregates.

“And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates subject to clinging? Whatever kind of form there is, whether past, future, or present … far or near, that is tainted, that can be clung to: this is called the form aggregate subject to clinging. Whatever kind of feeling there is … that is tainted, that can be clung to: this is called the feeling aggregate subject to clinging. Whatever kind of perception there is … that is tainted, that can be clung to: this is called the perception aggregate subject to clinging. Whatever kind of volitional formations there are … that are tainted, that can be clung to: these are called the volitional formations aggregate subject to clinging. Whatever kind of consciousness there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, that is tainted, that can be clung to: this is called the consciousness aggregate subject to clinging. These, bhikkhus, are called the five aggregates subject to clinging.”
We would be doomed and non-acquisition, non-delight would be impossible.
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Bundokji »

nirodh27 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:58 am SN22.48
“And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates? Whatever kind of form there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: this is called the form aggregate. Whatever kind of feeling there is … this is called the feeling aggregate. Whatever kind of perception there is … this is called the perception aggregate. Whatever kind of volitional formations there are … these are called the volitional formations aggregate. Whatever kind of consciousness there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: this is called the consciousness aggregate. These, bhikkhus, are called the five aggregates.

“And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates subject to clinging? Whatever kind of form there is, whether past, future, or present … far or near, that is tainted, that can be clung to: this is called the form aggregate subject to clinging. Whatever kind of feeling there is … that is tainted, that can be clung to: this is called the feeling aggregate subject to clinging. Whatever kind of perception there is … that is tainted, that can be clung to: this is called the perception aggregate subject to clinging. Whatever kind of volitional formations there are … that are tainted, that can be clung to: these are called the volitional formations aggregate subject to clinging. Whatever kind of consciousness there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, that is tainted, that can be clung to: this is called the consciousness aggregate subject to clinging. These, bhikkhus, are called the five aggregates subject to clinging.”
We would be doomed and non-acquisition, non-delight would be impossible.
The term aggregate implies a whole that is made up or formed by several elements. In paṭiccasamuppāda, clinging is preceded by craving, which is a result of focusing on the allure of clingable phenomena as per Sn 12.52. I am not sure if the term clinging is the correct translation of Upadana, but the English term implies the characteristic of cohesiveness.

What makes the aggregates one unified whole is some cohesive characteristic, which makes them cling-able phenomena but not necessarily unified by an essence. As such, i doubt that the aggregates remain without clinging.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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nirodh27
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by nirodh27 »

Hi,
Bundokji wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:37 am The term aggregate implies a whole that is made up or formed by several elements. In paṭiccasamuppāda, clinging is preceded by craving, which is a result of focusing on the allure of clingable phenomena as per Sn 12.52. I am not sure if the term clinging is the correct translation of Upadana, but the English term implies the characteristic of cohesiveness.

What makes the aggregates one unified whole is some cohesive characteristic, which makes them cling-able phenomena but not necessarily unified by an essence. As such, i doubt that the aggregates remain without clinging.
but how do you explain the passage that I have quoted? The sutta says that aggregates without clinging are a possibility and the practice seems all oriented to remove the need for clinging/sustenance to the aggregates that remains since you still have consciousness, perception, feelings, a body after full enlightnment. There are also aggregates that you don't cling to even right now, like bodies of strangers that you don't care about.

And that Idea of cohesiveness, it is supported in the canon? Because the focus seems simply that the aggregates can be used or not used for appropriation/identification/delight and the fact that cohesiveness I didn't find it useful nor it is explained, I think, in the Nikayas.
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Bundokji »

nirodh27 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:58 am but how do you explain the passage that I have quoted? The sutta says that aggregates without clinging are a possibility and the practice seems all oriented to remove the need for clinging/sustenance to the aggregates that remains since you still have consciousness, perception, feelings, a body after full enlightnment. There are also aggregates that you don't cling to even right now, like bodies of strangers that you don't care about.
The passage you have quoted does not say that aggregates without clinging are a possibility, but says that the aggregates can be clung to. To equate "aggregates can be clung to" with "aggregates without clinging are a possibility" is to use volition (which is one of the aggregates :shrug: ) as a measure or decisive factor in determining the clingabitlity of the aggregates. Whereas in AN 10.2, its asserted that no volition needs to be excreted for going from the near shore to the far shore.

Not caring for the bodies of others is due to clinging to form when taken as a self. The cohesiveness, which takes form as its reference, and therefore hold the other aggregates hostage to it is the bag of skin.
This city (body) is built of bones, plastered with flesh and blood; within are decay and death, pride and jealousy.
He who can curb his wrath
as soon as it arises,
as a timely antidote will check
snake's venom that so quickly spreads,
— such a monk gives up the here and the beyond,
just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin.

He who entirely cuts off his lust
as entering a pond one uproots lotus plants,
— such a monk gives up the here and the beyond,
just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin.
And that Idea of cohesiveness, it is supported in the canon? Because the focus seems simply that the aggregates can be used or not used for appropriation/identification/delight and the fact that cohesiveness I didn't find it useful nor it is explained, I think, in the Nikayas.
The whole and the parts is a recurring theme in the Buddha's teachings. Self view is coherent (or cohesive) to the extent that its not been challenged.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Spiny Norman »

So the aggregates are dukkha because they are conditioned, but the "escape" is Nibbana, which is unconditioned.

Does that work?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:23 pm So the aggregates are dukkha because they are conditioned, but the "escape" is Nibbana, which is unconditioned.

Does that work?
Eyes, sights, sounds, tastes, thoughts, concepts, meditation attainments, all types of feeling, any type of existence and all life is dukkha. Existence is misery. Existence is disgusting. Existence is a thorn. Nibbana is the cessation of all that.
"For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an non-deceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an non-deceptive nature."

- Dhātuvibhaṅga sutta
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:26 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:23 pm So the aggregates are dukkha because they are conditioned, but the "escape" is Nibbana, which is unconditioned.

Does that work?
Eyes, sights, sounds, tastes, thoughts, concepts, meditation attainments, all types of feeling, any type of existence and all life is dukkha. Existence is misery. Existence is disgusting. Existence is a thorn. Nibbana is the cessation of all that.
What does "cessation" mean to you, practically speaking?
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:46 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:26 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:23 pm So the aggregates are dukkha because they are conditioned, but the "escape" is Nibbana, which is unconditioned.

Does that work?
Eyes, sights, sounds, tastes, thoughts, concepts, meditation attainments, all types of feeling, any type of existence and all life is dukkha. Existence is misery. Existence is disgusting. Existence is a thorn. Nibbana is the cessation of all that.
What does "cessation" mean to you, practically speaking?
That there wasn’t anything to begin with, including that.
"For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an non-deceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an non-deceptive nature."

- Dhātuvibhaṅga sutta
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:55 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:46 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:26 pm

Eyes, sights, sounds, tastes, thoughts, concepts, meditation attainments, all types of feeling, any type of existence and all life is dukkha. Existence is misery. Existence is disgusting. Existence is a thorn. Nibbana is the cessation of all that.
What does "cessation" mean to you, practically speaking?
That there wasn’t anything to begin with, including that.
Sorry, that's too cryptic for me. Could you elaborate?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:27 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:55 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:46 pm

What does "cessation" mean to you, practically speaking?
That there wasn’t anything to begin with, including that.
Sorry, that's too cryptic for me. Could you elaborate?
That everything is merely conventional, including nibbāna. Nominal existence only, rather than substantial.
"For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an non-deceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an non-deceptive nature."

- Dhātuvibhaṅga sutta
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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In Theravada Buddhism, Nibbana is counted as "ultimate reality" ...

There are four Paramattha realities: Citta, Cetasika, Rupa, and Nibbana. The first three were conditioned, and the last one is unconditioned.

Is there any Pali Sutta or Abhidhamma text said that Nibbana is conventional?
"Those streams which flow throughout the world, Ajita", said the Lord, "Mindfulness serves to curb them in, This I call the restraint of the streams. But wisdom only turns them off."

(Sn 1035)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ontheway wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:20 am In Theravada Buddhism, Nibbana is counted as "ultimate reality" ...

There are four Paramattha realities: Citta, Cetasika, Rupa, and Nibbana. The first three were conditioned, and the last one is unconditioned.

Is there any Pali Sutta or Abhidhamma text said that Nibbana is conventional?
No, there isn't.
"For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an non-deceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an non-deceptive nature."

- Dhātuvibhaṅga sutta
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by bpallister »

Mr. Seek wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:56 pm Sukha and dukkha are objectification-classifications, and those have their cause in perception. When perceptions are done away with, sukha and dukkha are done away with as well. =)

one of these days i need to frame snp 4.11 on my wall
Or let go of snp4.11 :anjali:
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by bpallister »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:22 pm
nmjojola wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:19 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:13 pm All feelings are dukkha.
With phassanirodha there is vedananirodha, with vedananirodha, there is tanhanirdoha, with tanhanirodha there is upadananirodha, and upadananirodha is synonymous with dukkhanirodha.

Phassanirodha takes care of the feeling issue. There is no feeling issue in the case of the Arahant or Buddha: "Contacts contact depends on grouond, how could contacts contact a groundless one?" - Upadana
If your interpretation was correct then the Buddha would have just disappeared under the Bodhi tree. Thankfully it isn’t right, because dependent origination isn’t a model of strict causality where A causes B which causes C. Rather it’s conditional. Birth is a condition for death, but it doesn’t cause death. Birth and death, despite being conditionally related, can be separated by some time. Cessation then in dependent origination isn’t instant. Rather it’s more of a winding down, like the final embers slowly growing cold.
what if the Buddha did disappear under the Bodhi tree, and the rest of his lifespan he was a hologram or deep fake? :anjali:
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