Are the aggregates dukkha?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ontheway
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Ontheway »

Mr. Seek wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 6:58 pm Can you guys imagine it—us, 2000 years ago, having the same arguements, bickering over the same words and phrases, making schisms, writing commentaries, writing sub-commentaries, etc., and then again today doing the same, haha.
Buddha Dhamma was preserved since the first generation of Arahats till now to what we have the Pali scriptures. The rest of those schismatic schools are having different sets of Tripitaka. Therefore, we need to refer to the Pali sources, if we wish to learn what Buddha really taught.

Depends on which commentaries you refer to, if it is from the Atthakatha by Bhandatacariya Buddhaghosa Thera (which is translated from ancient Maha-Atthakatha given by ancient Arahats), then it is acceptable.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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mjaviem
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by mjaviem »

Ontheway wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:47 am I think it's just the choice of word by personal preference. Not really a big deal.
...
Yes, no big deal. I was just saying how those who claim to believe in emptiness as taught by the Buddha still speak of rebirth instead of saying birth. They don't speak of total cessation when they speak of re-something, they still hold the view of something enduring that keeps re-something. Like here:
Ontheway wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:47 am ... When the conditions leading to birth are present, there the being will be born again (hence, rebirth); but when the conditions leading to birth are no longer present, there the being will not be born again (hence, no more rebirth).

Here, the "Punabbhavo" or "reappearance" or " renewed existence" term was used by Buddha to define rebirth phenomenon.
...
Anyway, in any case birth and rebirth is only for those who 'see' beings (like me and most of us fo sure), not for those who see clearly.
Ontheway wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:47 am ... When the conditions leading to birth are present, there the being will be born again (hence, rebirth); but when the conditions leading to birth are no longer present, there the being will not be born again (hence, no more rebirth).

Here, the "Punabbhavo" or "reappearance" or " renewed existence" term was used by Buddha to define rebirth phenomenon.

Birth or "Jati" was used to define the process of emergence of aggregates, as how Ven. Sariputta Thera defined it in Saccavibhanga Sutta:

"Katamā cāvuso, jāti? Yā tesaṁ tesaṁ sattānaṁ tamhi tamhi sattanikāye jāti sañjāti okkanti abhinibbatti khandhānaṁ pātubhāvo āyatanānaṁ paṭilābho, ayaṁ vuccatāvuso: ‘jāti’."

As you can read from the text, "Jati" was defined as a single biological process or the emergence of aggregates in the beginning of a life , technically not "Rebirth".

Lord Buddha used another word for "Rebirth" (or should I say "renewed existence"?), which is "Punabbhavo", as it is in Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta:

"Ñāṇañca pana me dassanaṁ udapādi: ‘akuppā me vimutti, ayamantimā jāti, natthi dāni punabbhavo’”ti."

Here the Suttanta text conveyed the meaning of rebirth or " renewed existence". It is very different from what Sassatavada and Ucchedavada taught.
In Paticca Samuppada, no "Soul" , "Personality" or "Creator" was needed. It is a conditionality.


I hope you can see the difference between those words.
Main difference of views with you here is that you interpret the suttas as speaking of a biological process while I don't. I believe the buddha only taught about suffering and liberation from it and not about the workings of the universe beyond human experience. As I always say the physical rebirth believers would be better off looking for a confirmation of their believe elsewhere as the Buddha was not concerned about biology, atoms, planets, chemistry or physics.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Ontheway
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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“As I always say the physical rebirth believers would be better off looking for a confirmation of their believe elsewhere as the Buddha was not concerned about biology, atoms, planets, chemistry or physics.”

You underestimated the wisdom and direct knowledge of our Master, Sammasambuddha.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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mjaviem
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by mjaviem »

Ontheway wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:32 pm “As I always say the physical rebirth believers would be better off looking for a confirmation of their believe elsewhere as the Buddha was not concerned about biology, atoms, planets, chemistry or physics.”

You underestimated the wisdom and direct knowledge of our Master, Sammasambuddha.
:hug:
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Mr. Seek
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Mr. Seek »

Ontheway wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:32 pm our Master, Sammasambuddha.
your faith and conviction are quite elevated
may.all.bliss
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by may.all.bliss »

I think that is more the teaching for people who desire most strongly to meditate up to the point of cessation/nibanna.
But not many people are willing, and so he taught for lay people as well like this:

“When a lay follower possesses five things, he lives with confidence in his house, and he will
find himself in heaven as sure as if he had been carried off and put there. What are the five? He
abstains from killing living beings, from taking what is not given, from misconduct in sensual
desires, from speaking falsehood, and from indulging in liquor, wine, and fermented brews.”

and 'dhamma is not made for grasping' 'in the end all teaching has to be let go off, the good and how much more so the bad'.
Pulsar
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Pulsar »

Mr. Seek wrote
technically; because the moment you get involved with them, there will be dukkha
oh screw it, time for schisms
the five aggregate teaching is a misinterpreted reformulation of dependent co-arising
there i said it; written plain and simple in mn 18:
form (rūpa, e.g. cakkhu) → sentience or contact (viññāṇa or phassa) → sensation (vedanā) → apperception (saññā) → volition (saṅkhāra, vitakka, papañca, saṅkha) → dukkha
saññā is the main culprit; the last few paragraphs of snp 4.11 present a solution for it.
You are a gift from heaven, I mean my kinda heaven. To find someone who finds a connection between
DO, MN 18, and Snp 4.11? it does not often happen.
Spend a while with Diversity of External Contacts, I mean the first section of Dhatusamyutta. The one Samyutta that clarifies DO like nothing else, O' so sadly neglected.
It is Plain gold. I hope you hang around for a while this time. What you wrote here the five aggregate teaching is a misinterpreted reformulation of dependent co-arising did you come up with it?. If you did, you have understood this Dhamma of DO with great clarity. Or did some scholar write it? If so who is that scholar?
Keep up the good work.
With love :candle:
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Spiny Norman »

So with the Arrow Sutta, the first arrow is bodily pain, and the second arrow is associated mental anguish, right?
But is the first arrow still dukkha for the Arahant?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:53 pm So with the Arrow Sutta, the first arrow is bodily pain, and the second arrow is associated mental anguish, right?
But is the first arrow still dukkha for the Arahant?
The 1st arrow is painful vedanā at any of the 6 sense bases. Yes, the 1st arrow is dukkha because pain itself is dukkha. The other types of vedanā are also dukkha.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by mjaviem »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:53 pm So with the Arrow Sutta, the first arrow is bodily pain, and the second arrow is associated mental anguish, right?
But is the first arrow still dukkha for the Arahant?
He knows it's dukkha so dukkha does not arise. There's only one dukkha: the dukkha of I and mine. Pain, formations and change are only dukkha because of this I and mine. An arahant may be being dismembered by awful people and yet he's not participating, he is detached, of course there would be screams due to pain but not screams of despair. There's no more liking and disliking.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:53 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:53 pm So with the Arrow Sutta, the first arrow is bodily pain, and the second arrow is associated mental anguish, right?
But is the first arrow still dukkha for the Arahant?
He knows it's dukkha so dukkha does not arise. There's only one dukkha: the dukkha of I and mine. Pain, formations and change are only dukkha because of this I and mine. An arahant may be being dismembered by awful people and yet he's not participating, he is detached, of course there would be screams due to pain but not screams of despair. There's no more liking and disliking.
Things aren’t impermanent and unsatisfactory because of self notions. Pain is painful regardless. The Buddha still had likes and dislikes.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:59 pm Things aren’t impermanent and unsatisfactory because of self notions...
I agree.
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:59 pm ... Pain is painful regardless. The Buddha still had likes and dislikes.
I disagree.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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mjaviem wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:04 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:59 pm Things aren’t impermanent and unsatisfactory because of self notions...
I agree.
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:59 pm ... Pain is painful regardless. The Buddha still had likes and dislikes.
I disagree.
The Buddha experienced pain. That doesn’t change. Pain is dukkha, as many suttas have explained. Pleasant vedana is pleasing, whilst pain is displeasing. Pleasant vedana arises when there is contact with what is liked, whilst pain is the opposite. Those do not change. Rather what is gone are the underlying tendencies of lust and aversion which lay beneath those contacts (or delusion for equanimity).

“On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder.” MN 38

The Buddha and Arahants still experienced what is pleasing or displeasing. What is gone is their lust or aversion based upon their likes and dislikes. What I find naturally pleasing will be different to another. One Arahant’s likes and dislikes will be different to another. Likes and dislikes remain. The tendencies go. The Buddha and Arahants aren’t in a state of permanent equanimity, in terms of vedanā.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:10 pm The Buddha experienced pain. That doesn’t change. Pain is dukkha, as many suttas have explained. Pleasant vedana is pleasing, whilst pain is displeasing. Pleasant vedana arises when there is contact with what is liked, whilst pain is the opposite. Those do not change. Rather what is gone are the underlying tendencies of lust and aversion which lay beneath those contacts (or delusion for equanimity).

“On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder.” MN 38

The Buddha and Arahants still experienced what is pleasing or displeasing. What is gone is their lust or aversion based upon their likes and dislikes. What I find naturally pleasing will be different to another. One Arahant’s likes and dislikes will be different to another. Likes and dislikes remain. The tendencies go. The Buddha and Arahants aren’t in a state of permanent equanimity, in terms of vedanā.
The arahants can tell what is pleasing and what is displeasing but they are not pleased or displeased by it. When lust and aversion are totally abandoned no likes and dislikes remain. If it is hot they sit in the shade under a tree, not because of their preferences but because it's the most wise thing to do in that situation. This is to keep the body cool not because they prefer cool shadow over hot sunlight.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:35 pm
The arahants can tell what is pleasing and what is displeasing but they are not pleased or displeased by it.
If when they experience a contact there is pleasant vedana then by definition they find it pleasing. Something can’t be pleasant if you don’t find it pleasing. The same with what is displeasing. What is pleasing to me might not be pleasing to the Buddha. We have different likes and dislikes, but unlike him I lust after mine or repel it.
When lust and aversion are totally abandoned no likes and dislikes remain.
They still experience what is pleasing and displeasing, which is liking and disliking. When the Buddha eats food he still experiences what is tasty and what is not, which can be totally different to what Ananda likes and dislikes in terms of food. According to you there is permanent equanimity vedana, which isn’t the case at all.
If it is hot they sit in the shade under a tree, not because of their preferences but because it's the most wise thing to do in that situation. This is to keep the body cool not because they prefer cool shadow over hot sunlight.
If it’s hot some Arahants will like it and others will not, but both have done away with lust or aversion based upon their subjective interpretation of that same contact.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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