Are the aggregates dukkha?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:38 am
Of course it makes little sense for people like you who believe in existences and the reality of birth and the significance of death.
How does awakening mean past birth has ceased? Since we are talking about dependent origination and what occurs for people who are unawakened, yes I talk of the significance of birth and death both of which are described in a physical way in the suttas. That is how the original audience would have understood it. Birth in dependent origination means gestation in the womb, for a human being.
The what that reocurred is the essence. We should see the cart as it really is without conceivings.
Do you agree that if you are unawakened then there will again be birth, ageing sickness and death? Yes or no?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:43 pm
mjaviem wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:35 pm
The arahants can tell what is pleasing and what is displeasing but they are not pleased or displeased by it.
If when they experience a contact there is pleasant vedana then by definition they find it pleasing. Something can’t be pleasant if you don’t find it pleasing. The same with what is displeasing. What is pleasing to me might not be pleasing to the Buddha. We have different likes and dislikes, but unlike him I lust after mine or repel it.
...
It's pleasant because people find it pleasing not because arahants find it pleasing. Unlike them, we have different likes and dislikes and we lust and repel. And they know it, they see pleasant or any kind of vedana arising. They 'see' it or 'know' it but don't 'experience' it in the sense that you use.
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:43 pm ...
When lust and aversion are totally abandoned no likes and dislikes remain.
They still experience what is pleasing and displeasing, which is liking and disliking. When the Buddha eats food he still experiences what is tasty and what is not, which can be totally different to what Ananda likes and dislikes in terms of food. According to you there is permanent equanimity vedana, which isn’t the case at all.
...
They know what is pleasing and displeasing, which is different to liking and disliking. When the Buddha easts food he still knows or sees what is tasty and what is not. The same for Ananda. There is permanent equanimity towards any vedana which is for sure the case!
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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mjaviem
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:06 pm
mjaviem wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:38 am
Of course it makes little sense for people like you who believe in existences and the reality of birth and the significance of death.
How does awakening mean past birth has ceased? Since we are talking about dependent origination and what occurs for people who are unawakened, yes I talk of the significance of birth and death both of which are described in a physical way in the suttas. That is how the original audience would have understood it. Birth in dependent origination means gestation in the womb, for a human being.
...
You cling too much to biological processes as being 'mine' or happening to 'me'. It seems you attach even more than me!

Dependent origination is not meant for soul-believers. It is meant for the Noble disciples who went homeless to follow the Buddha.
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:06 pm ...
The what that reocurred is the essence. We should see the cart as it really is without conceivings.
Do you agree that if you are unawakened then there will again be birth, ageing sickness and death? Yes or no?
Yes, birth, ageing and death are a conception in the context of the Teachings. The biological process is for biology researchers, you can find good material about this in scientific libraries if you are interested in worldly matters like wombs, genes and inherited traits.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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mjaviem wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:09 pm
It's pleasant because people find it pleasing not because arahants find it pleasing. Unlike them, we have different likes and dislikes and we lust and repel. And they know it, they see pleasant or any kind of vedana arising. They 'see' it or 'know' it but don't 'experience' it in the sense that you use.
Do Buddhas and Arahants experience pleasant and unpleasant vedanā, yes or no? If they "see it and know it" then they are experiencing it since "seeing and knowing" involves the senses, in the context here.
They know what is pleasing and displeasing, which is different to liking and disliking.
Definition of pleasing
: giving pleasure : AGREEABLE
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pleasing

If it is pleasing then it is liked. To like something is to find it pleasing. If you didn't like it then it wouldn't be pleasing. It would be displeasing, or neutral.
When the Buddha easts food he still knows or sees what is tasty and what is not. The same for Ananda.
So they liked different foods.
You cling too much to biological processes as being 'mine' or happening to 'me'. It seems you attach even more than me! Dependent origination is not meant for soul-believers. It is meant for the Noble disciples who went homeless to follow the Buddha.
I said jati in terms of dependent origination means literal gestation in the womb, for those born into humanity. I also said that is how the Buddha's audience would have understood it. Nothing in that commits me to any kind of soul theory. To clarify, ultimately I don't think we can speak of birth. Ultimately I don't think we can speak of Buddha nor nibbāna. Ultimately I don't think those things truly exist. Conventionally however they do, and it is in terms of worldly convention that dependent origination is explained. When birth is defined in the suttas, it means what it says. It means exactly what Brahmins, ascetics and layfolk understood by "birth". You also dodged my question. How does awakening cause past birth to cease? What does that even mean?
Yes, birth is a conception in the context of the Teachings. The biological process is for biology researchers, you can find good material about this in scientific libraries if you are interested in worldly matters like wombs, genes and inherited traits.
You don't have to be interested in biology and how birth happens to accept that jati in dependent origination meant and still means pregnancy, for humans, or spontaneous birth in heaven for devas etc etc.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:46 pm Do Buddhas and Arahants experience pleasant and unpleasant vedanā, yes or no? If they "see it and know it" then they are experiencing it since "seeing and knowing" involves the senses, in the context here.
They experience/see/know it as not me, not mine, not myself.
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:46 pm
Definition of pleasing
: giving pleasure : AGREEABLE
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pleasing

If it is pleasing then it is liked. To like something is to find it pleasing. If you didn't like it then it wouldn't be pleasing. It would be displeasing, or neutral.
Not by the Arahant. They see with wisdom and do not like or dislike. They don't find pleasant things as their pleasure. They could experience/see/know a constant unending noise but they wouldn'tt cling, they would let it go and wouldn't dislike it even they experienced/saw/knew it as an unpleasant noise.

You are right in that if it is pleasing then it is liked, but not by Arahants, only by worldlings.
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:46 pm
When the Buddha easts food he still knows or sees what is tasty and what is not. The same for Ananda.
So they like different foods.
No, there's no liking for them. They experience/see/know the pleasant taste of different foods but they don't expect any dishes to come. They are beyond liking and disliking any of the aggregates.
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:46 pm ... You also dodged my question. How does awakening cause past birth to cease? What does that even mean?
It means that the conception of a self that was born or is going to be born ends. But you can't see it because you think there can be birth, ageing and death without the conception of a self.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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Could it be said that the Buddha did not let go of the raft? Because if he did, how could he transmit the dharma to other beings?
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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Bhante G said that the Buddha did not experience dukkha as he had abandoned clinging upon enlightenment. He said that the clinging to the aggregates is the dukkha, not the aggregates themselves. He said the Buddha experienced pain after his his enlightenment, however.
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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bpallister wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:56 pm Bhante G said that the Buddha did not experience dukkha as he had abandoned clinging upon enlightenment. He said that the clinging to the aggregates is the dukkha, not the aggregates themselves. He said the Buddha experienced pain after his his enlightenment, however.
Since pain itself is defined as dukkha Bhante is either confused or has contradicted himself.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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mjaviem wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:28 pm Dependent origination is not meant for soul-believers.
soul is undeclared in this teaching
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:59 pm
bpallister wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:56 pm Bhante G said that the Buddha did not experience dukkha as he had abandoned clinging upon enlightenment. He said that the clinging to the aggregates is the dukkha, not the aggregates themselves. He said the Buddha experienced pain after his his enlightenment, however.
Since pain itself is defined as dukkha Bhante is either confused or has contradicted himself.
he seemed to make a distinction between physical and psychological pain, although he did not explicitly state this. He also kind of went back to my question at the end of the session as he stressed not seeing the Buddha as a being with a finite lifespan but seeing the Buddha through the Dhamma.
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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bpallister wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:55 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:59 pm
bpallister wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:56 pm Bhante G said that the Buddha did not experience dukkha as he had abandoned clinging upon enlightenment. He said that the clinging to the aggregates is the dukkha, not the aggregates themselves. He said the Buddha experienced pain after his his enlightenment, however.
Since pain itself is defined as dukkha Bhante is either confused or has contradicted himself.
he seemed to make a distinction between physical and psychological pain, although he did not explicitly state this. He also kind of went back to my question at the end of the session as he stressed not seeing the Buddha as a being with a finite lifespan but seeing the Buddha through the Dhamma.
There is a distinction, of sorts. It’s not quite physical vs mental but rather initial sense pain at any sense base (including the mind) vs the emotional reaction to it. The Buddha is without the latter but still experiences the former (whilst alive), but both are dukkha.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by bpallister »

that would be my understanding too, but Bhante was very emphatic that the Buddha did not experience dukkha. :shrug:
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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bpallister wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:10 pm that would be my understanding too, but Bhante was very emphatic that the Buddha did not experience dukkha. :shrug:
It’s a common idea.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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You're a common idea :tongue:
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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bpallister wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:42 pm You're a common idea :tongue:
No you :)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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