Are the aggregates dukkha?

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bpallister
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Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by bpallister »

What are your thoughts on this? I might ask Bhante G this in the morning.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Yes.
"For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an non-deceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an non-deceptive nature."

- Dhātuvibhaṅga sutta
bpallister
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by bpallister »

Thank you, friend
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SDC
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by SDC »

SN 56.11 wrote: Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering.
“By breaking the root of unknowing, it smashes the mechanism of deeds, and drops the thunderbolt of knowledge on the taking up of consciousnesses.” Thag 6.8
Mr. Seek
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Mr. Seek »

technically; because the moment you get involved with them, there will be dukkha

oh screw it, time for schisms

the five aggregate teaching is a misinterpreted reformulation of dependent co-arising

there i said it; written plain and simple in mn 18:

form (rūpa, e.g. cakkhu) → sentience or contact (viññāṇa or phassa) → sensation (vedanā) → apperception (saññā) → volition (saṅkhāra, vitakka, papañca, saṅkha) → dukkha

saññā is the main culprit; the last few paragraphs of snp 4.11 present a solution for it

see you in aviici hell, suckers; or tusita heaven, who knows

ask bhante g about this =)
Last edited by Mr. Seek on Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:59 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Ceisiwr »

SDC wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:58 pm
SN 56.11 wrote: Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering.
Pain itself is dukkha, as is change.
"For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an non-deceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an non-deceptive nature."

- Dhātuvibhaṅga sutta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr. Seek wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:03 am technically, because the moment you get involved with them, there will be dukkha

oh screw it, time for schisms

the five aggregate teaching is a misinterpreted reformulation of dependent co-arising

there i said it; written plain and simple in mn 18:

form (rūpa, e.g. cakkhu) → sentience or contact (viññāṇa or phassa) → sensation (vedanā) → apperception (saññā) → volition (saṅkhāra, vitakka, papañca, saṅkha) → dukkha

saññā is the main culprit, and how to get rid of it is described in the last few paragraphs of snp 4.11

see you in aviici hell, suckers; or tusita heaven, who knows

ask bhante g about this =)
The Buddha still made use of sañña. The Buddha still used concepts and labels. They just need to be understood.
"For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an non-deceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an non-deceptive nature."

- Dhātuvibhaṅga sutta
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bodom
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by bodom »

Only if you cling to them.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Ceisiwr »

bodom wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:29 am Only if you cling to them.

:anjali:
The Buddha still experienced dukkha.
"For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an non-deceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an non-deceptive nature."

- Dhātuvibhaṅga sutta
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SDC
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by SDC »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:19 am
SDC wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:58 pm
SN 56.11 wrote: Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering.
Pain itself is dukkha, as is change.
I don't disagree, but pain is easily misunderstood. SN 36.6 can shed some light.

I think SN 56.11 sums it up nicely: not to get what one wants is suffering.
“By breaking the root of unknowing, it smashes the mechanism of deeds, and drops the thunderbolt of knowledge on the taking up of consciousnesses.” Thag 6.8
Mr. Seek
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Mr. Seek »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:28 am The Buddha still made use of sañña. The Buddha still used concepts and labels. They just need to be understood.
Ok maybe you're right, ill give you the benefit of the doubt; i corrected myself to

"saññā is the main culprit; the last few paragraphs of snp 4.11 present a solution for it"
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SDC
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by SDC »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:30 am
bodom wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:29 am Only if you cling to them.

:anjali:
The Buddha still experienced dukkha.
Please don't bring up the back ache!!! :tongue:
“By breaking the root of unknowing, it smashes the mechanism of deeds, and drops the thunderbolt of knowledge on the taking up of consciousnesses.” Thag 6.8
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bodom
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by bodom »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:30 am
bodom wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:29 am Only if you cling to them.

:anjali:
The Buddha still experienced dukkha.
He didn't experience it as "I" or "mine". The Buddha experienced pain of course but there was no suffering around it. Two very different things. The second dart was removed by him.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Ceisiwr »

SDC wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:39 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:19 am
SDC wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:58 pm
Pain itself is dukkha, as is change.
I don't disagree, but pain is easily misunderstood. SN 36.6 can shed some light.

I think SN 56.11 sums it up nicely: not to get what one wants is suffering.
“Mendicants, there are these three forms of suffering. What three? The suffering inherent in painful feeling; the suffering inherent in conditions; and the suffering inherent in perishing. These are the three forms of suffering." - SN 45.165

“And what, bhikkhus, is the passing away of suffering? In dependence on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of existence; with the cessation of existence, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. This is the passing away of suffering." - SN 12.43

“Good, good, bhikkhu! These three feelings have been spoken of by me: pleasant feeling, painful feeling, neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling. These three feelings have been spoken of by me. And I have also said: ‘Whatever is felt is included in suffering.’ That has been stated by me with reference to the impermanence of formations. That has been stated by me with reference to formations being subject to destruction … to formations being subject to vanishing … to formations being subject to fading away … to formations being subject to cessation … to formations being subject to change." SN 36.11

The Buddha still experienced dukkha, despite not clinging to anything, because all of conditioned existence and everything therein IS dukkha.
"For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an non-deceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an non-deceptive nature."

- Dhātuvibhaṅga sutta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Ceisiwr »

bodom wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:41 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:30 am
bodom wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:29 am Only if you cling to them.

:anjali:
The Buddha still experienced dukkha.
He didn't experience it as "I" or "mine". The Buddha experienced pain of course but there was no suffering around it. Two very different things. The second dart was removed by him.

:anjali:
The 1st dart is still dukkha. Removing "I" doesn't change that. The Buddha still perceived dhammas as being dukkha. The Buddha saw things correctly. All conditioned dhammas are therefore dukkha.
"For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an non-deceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an non-deceptive nature."

- Dhātuvibhaṅga sutta
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