Are the aggregates dukkha?

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cappuccino
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:59 pm The Buddha experienced pain, and that pain is dukkha.
dukkha refers to anxiety, worry, fear


about the future
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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since we are becoming


since the future is uncertain
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:05 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:59 pm ...
The gymnast who can't use english to refer to dukkha and resorts to the pali word is you not me.
I’ve said many times that dukkha can mean unsatisfactoriness, or simply pain. A simple question for you. Did the Buddha experience back pain, according to the texts, yes or no?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:18 pm I’ve said many times that dukkha can mean unsatisfactoriness, or simply pain. A simple question for you. Did the Buddha experience back pain, according to the texts, yes or no?
I haven't read all texts so I can't answer. Perhaps you can quote the relevant sutta about the back pain?
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:19 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:18 pm I’ve said many times that dukkha can mean unsatisfactoriness, or simply pain. A simple question for you. Did the Buddha experience back pain, according to the texts, yes or no?
I haven't read all texts so I can't answer. Perhaps you can quote the relevant sutta about the back pain?
I’m asking you if the Buddha experienced back pain, or let’s just go for pain in general, according to the texts?

“I’m now old, elderly and senior. I’m advanced in years and have reached the final stage of life. I’m currently eighty years old. Just as a decrepit cart keeps going by relying on straps, in the same way, the Realized One’s body keeps going by relying on straps, or so you’d think. Sometimes the Realized One, not focusing on any signs, and with the cessation of certain feelings, enters and remains in the signless immersion of the heart. Only then does the Realized One’s body become more comfortable.” - DN 16

“Yes, venerable sir,” they replied. Then they rose from their seats and, after paying homage to the Blessed One, keeping him on their right, they departed. Then, not long after the Sakyans of Kapilavatthu had left, the Blessed One addressed the Venerable Mahamoggallana thus: “The Saṅgha of bhikkhus is free from sloth and torpor, Moggallana. Give a Dhamma talk to the bhikkhus. My back is aching, so I will stretch it.”

“Yes, venerable sir,” the Venerable Mahamoggallana replied.”
- SN 35.243
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:26 pm ...
“Yes, venerable sir,” they replied. Then they rose from their seats and, after paying homage to the Blessed One, keeping him on their right, they departed. Then, not long after the Sakyans of Kapilavatthu had left, the Blessed One addressed the Venerable Mahamoggallana thus: “The Saṅgha of bhikkhus is free from sloth and torpor, Moggallana. Give a Dhamma talk to the bhikkhus. My back is aching, so I will stretch it.”

“Yes, venerable sir,” the Venerable Mahamoggallana replied.”
- SN 35.243
Oh, I see. Well, that's not a declaration of being subject to pain. He's just referring to a fact: that there are painful feelings coming from the back. We've learned from his teachings that he regarded these feelings as not his so there's no suffering on account of this painful feelings.

For me an experience can only happen to someone but the Buddha found that nothing can be regarded as self so he stopped "having" experiences. So he did not experience back pain or any other kind of pain. The pain is there but no possible experience can be there since there's no one there to have the experience.
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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mjaviem wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:41 pm there's no one there to have the experience.
he has experiences, yet is absent


absence is his experience (as well)
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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mjaviem wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:41 pm
For me an experience can only happen to someone but the Buddha found that nothing can be regarded as self so he stopped "having" experiences. So he did not experience back pain or any other kind of pain. The pain is there but no possible experience can be there since there's no one there to have the experience.
This is garbled. If the Buddha said he has back pain that means he is experiencing back pain. If he wasn’t experiencing back pain he wouldn’t say he had back pain, because he wouldn’t be experiencing it. Nowhere at all does the realisation of emptiness mean that the Buddha never again experienced pain, pleasure or neutral vedana. You also contradicted yourself again.

“He's just referring to a fact: that there are painful feelings coming from the back.”

How can the Buddha know there are painful feelings coming from his back without experiencing them? If he knows there is a painful feeling in his back then he is experiencing it, yet according to you what you just said here is impossible.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:54 pm ...
How can the Buddha know there are painful feelings coming from his back without experiencing them?...
He knows yet he doesn't take them as "me, mine or myself".
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:54 pm ...
... If he knows there is a painful feeling in his back then he is experiencing it, yet according to you what you just said here is impossible.
Impossible for someone who has relinquished to the last bit of I and mine making and is devoid of greed, hatred and delusion. No one there to "have" the experience. He is detached from the "experience". He has abandoned all grasping and it's not possible for him to take anything as his experience.
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:15 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:54 pm ...
How can the Buddha know there are painful feelings coming from his back without experiencing them?...
He knows yet he doesn't take them as "me, mine or myself".
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:54 pm ...
... If he knows there is a painful feeling in his back then he is experiencing it, yet according to you what you just said here is impossible.
Impossible for someone who has relinquished to the last bit of I and mine making and is devoid of greed, hatred and delusion. No one there to "have" the experience. He is detached from the "experience". He has abandoned all grasping and it's not possible for him to take anything as his experience.
So he does experience pain then, contrary to what you said earlier.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:28 pm ...
So he does experience pain then, contrary to what you said earlier.
If you want to believe so... But let's see nirodh27's reply. He raised a question and I gave an answer. We just wait.
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:31 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:28 pm ...
So he does experience pain then, contrary to what you said earlier.
If you want to believe so... But let's see nirodh27's reply. He raised a question and I gave an answer. We just wait.
According to your own words he experiences pain. If he knows he is in pain then he is experiencing pain. This shouldn’t need spelling out. He even said himself that he was in pain, which in some bizarre thinking you read as not being in pain.

How does he know he is in pain without experiencing it?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by samseva »

nirodh27 wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:26 pm In this sense, it is dangerous to say that Dukkha is inherent in all things
You're mixing up suffering as a characteristic, and experiencing suffering.
nirodh27 wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:26 pm But Dukkha is not inherent in reality
It is. As taught by the Buddha himself, with one of his most important teachings of the three characteristics of existence (tilakkhaṇa), of anicca, dukkha and anattā:
sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā sabbe dhammā anattā’ti
All conditioned things are inherently susceptible to being dukkha.
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by asahi »

mjaviem wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:31 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:28 pm ...
So he does experience pain then, contrary to what you said earlier.
If you want to believe so... But let's see nirodh27's reply. He raised a question and I gave an answer. We just wait.
It is not a belief . The Buddha experiencing back pain and decided to lie down . Acknowledging the back pain but not identifying pain as Himself or belongs to Him . There is no denying of back pain for Buddha , however , knowing the body need resting , the thoughts of laying down arises to His mind .
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Spiny Norman »

samseva wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:29 am You're mixing up suffering as a characteristic, and experiencing suffering.

As taught by the Buddha himself, with one of his most important teachings of the three characteristics of existence (tilakkhaṇa), of anicca, dukkha and anattā:
sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā sabbe dhammā anattā’ti
Is there clear evidence in the suttas for your distinction between what is unsatisfactory and what is suffering? The idea of two types of dukkha?

As for the tilakkhana, don't these just apply to conditioned existence, with the unconditioned (Nibbana) as the "escape"?
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