Are the aggregates dukkha?

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nmjojola
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by nmjojola »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:30 am The Buddha still experienced dukkha.
What an unfortunate view to hold.
If I had a nickel for every instance in the suttas that the Buddha and the Arahants declared freedom from dukkha, birth, aging, illness, and death - I would have a lot of nickels.

Bhante G's response to OP was accurate.
In short, pancupadanakhanda (five aggregates of clinging) = dukkha
Pancakhanda (just the five aggregates (without clinging, such as in the case of the buddha or the arahant)) = no more dukkha

Dukkha (suffering, which is synonymous with clinging (upadana)) is determined by tanha (craving), tanha is determined by vedana (feeling), vedana is determined by phassa (contact). With tanhanirodha (nirodha meaning removal), there is dukkhanirodha, with vedananirodha there is tanhanirodha, with phassanirodha there is vedananirodha (and so forth leading to avijja (ignorance), thus with avijjanirodha there is phassanirodha).

In the case of the Buddha (and the Arahant) there is phassanirodha (removal of contact): "Contacts contact depends on ground, how could contacts contact a groundless one?" - Udana

But foremost and forerunner:
However there is a more general and fundamental issue to be dealt with here before these specifics can be sufficiently appreciated, and that is, no one short of a sotapanna understands dukkha, dukkha is destroyed to the extent it is understood, thus dukkha is only understood to the extent that it is destroyed.

"What is dukkha?" Is not a question to be taken lightly, for only the enlightened (the one who is at least a sotapanna) knows the answer and understands the question in the first place. To know the answer to that question means one has reached at least the 1st stage of enlightenment.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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nmjojola wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:08 pm
What an unfortunate view to hold.
Pain itself is dukkha. All feelings are dukkha.
If I had a nickel for every instance in the suttas that the Buddha and the Arahants declared freedom from dukkha, birth, aging, illness, and death - I would have a lot of nickels.
Yes, freedom from birth means not having to be born again. By not being born again there will be no more ageing, sickness, pain and death. This refers to future dukkha which has ended forever. However, whilst alive the Buddha still experienced the dukkha of pain and conditioned dhammas because they were the result of past clinging. What he was immediately free from was the 2nd dart of sorrow etc because of that dukkha. Ultimately though, in the end freedom from all dukkha for him came at the end of his life.
In the case of the Buddha (and the Arahant) there is phassanirodha (removal of contact): "Contacts contact depends on ground, how could contacts contact a groundless one?" - Udana
The Buddha still experienced contact, vedana and sense objects.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
nmjojola
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by nmjojola »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:13 pm All feelings are dukkha.
With phassanirodha there is vedananirodha, with vedananirodha, there is tanhanirdoha, with tanhanirodha there is upadananirodha, and upadananirodha is synonymous with dukkhanirodha.

Phassanirodha takes care of the feeling issue. There is no feeling issue in the case of the Arahant or Buddha: "Contacts contact depends on grouond, how could contacts contact a groundless one?" - Upadana


This is repeated in the suttas countless times.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Ceisiwr »

nmjojola wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:19 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:13 pm All feelings are dukkha.
With phassanirodha there is vedananirodha, with vedananirodha, there is tanhanirdoha, with tanhanirodha there is upadananirodha, and upadananirodha is synonymous with dukkhanirodha.

Phassanirodha takes care of the feeling issue. There is no feeling issue in the case of the Arahant or Buddha: "Contacts contact depends on grouond, how could contacts contact a groundless one?" - Upadana
If your interpretation was correct then the Buddha would have just disappeared under the Bodhi tree. Thankfully it isn’t right, because dependent origination isn’t a model of strict causality where A causes B which causes C. Rather it’s conditional. Birth is a condition for death, but it doesn’t cause death. Birth and death, despite being conditionally related, can be separated by some time. Cessation then in dependent origination isn’t instant. Rather it’s more of a winding down, like the final embers slowly growing cold.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
nmjojola
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by nmjojola »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:22 pm If your interpretation...
I didn't present an interpretation, I presented what the suttas state outright.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Ceisiwr »

nmjojola wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:31 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:22 pm If your interpretation...
I didn't present an interpretation, I presented what the suttas state outright.
You quoted the suttas, yes, but your interpretation is off. Conditionality isn’t causality. The Buddha didn’t disappear under the Bodhi tree. The Buddha still experienced feelings, which means he still experienced contact. Experiencing contact and feelings he therefore still experienced dukkha because all feelings are dukkha, in different ways. All conditioned dhammas are dukkha. The Buddha still perceived them as dukkha (as well as impermanent and not-self), because that is what they are. They don’t stop being impermanent, dukkha and not-self once awakened.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
nmjojola
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by nmjojola »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:34 pm your interpretation is off
I didn't offer an interpretation in the first place, therefore the rest of your statement is meaningless. Suttas stand on their own merit. Either you penetrate their meaning and find for your own self the escape from all dukkha in the here and now, or you don't.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Ceisiwr »

nmjojola wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:39 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:34 pm your interpretation is off
I didn't offer an interpretation in the first place, therefore the rest of your statement is meaningless. Suttas stand on their own merit. Either you penetrate their meaning and find for your own self the escape from all dukkha in the here and now, or you don't.
Your interpretation of those words is that A) Cessation is instant and B) The Buddha didn’t experience any dukkha (because of A). The problem is that A doesn’t stand, since conditionally isn’t causality, and so B also falls because vedana is dukkha. Ask yourself how the Buddha experienced back pain if your interpretation is correct?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
nmjojola
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by nmjojola »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:42 pm Your interpretation
Again, your attacking something that doesn't exist because there was no interpretation presented, I only presented what the suttas state outright, if you have issue, then it's with sutta, not with anything pertaining to me.

"Contacts contact depends on ground, how could contacts contact a groundless one?"
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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nmjojola wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:47 pm

Again, your attacking something that doesn't exist because there was no interpretation presented, I only presented what the suttas state outright, if you have issue, then it's with sutta, not with anything pertaining to me.
No, you quoted the suttas in order to argue a position. Namely, that my argument is wrong because all the links immediately cease and so the Buddha doesn’t experience contact, feelings and so no dukkha at all. The problem is that your quotes here do not indicate a time frame. They say that when x ceases, y will cease but nothing in “cease” tells us anything about when they cease. Both of us are filling in that gap with an interpretation. You interpret it to be immediate, which raises a number of issues, whilst I do not. Both however are interpretations.
"Contacts contact depends on ground, how could contacts contact a groundless one?"
Yes, but this doesn’t establish that the Buddha didn’t experience contact whilst alive and walking around the place. Once again, he experienced back pain. Back pain is a painful contact, and so there is painful vedana there. This is something that couldn’t have happened if your interpretation of this passage is true, yet we are told that it did.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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cappuccino
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by cappuccino »

life is miserable, but


there is a dimension which is not
nmjojola
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by nmjojola »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:56 pm ..a time frame...
Bingo.

Paticcasamuppada (thus, the dhamma) is akalika (atemporal). This is another example of something that is repeated countless times and chanted every day on a regular basis at temples:

Yo so svākkhāto bhagavatā dhammo,
The Dhamma well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Sandiṭṭhiko akāliko ehipassiko,
to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting all to come & see.

So long as you think of dependent origination as something where "starts" and "stops" apply (i.e. as some sort of sequence, or "event") then you're going to run into the issues you bring up where questions like OP's get bound up in and the whole search for the escape from all dukkha in the here and now goes astray.

phassanirodha -> vedananirodha -> tanhanirodha -> upadananirodha (dukkhanirodha) presents no issue when "akalika" is taken into account and not ignored.

Even the Thai scholar monk Payutto said the word "cessation" isn't entirely wrong, but it's not entirely right, because it suggests "time", he said it's better to think of it as "not a problem" (i.e. the problem of dukkha is when the problem of (tanha -> feeling -> )contact is; without the problem of contact, there isn't the problem of (feeling->craving->) dukkha.

Contacts contact depend on ground, and the ground here is asmimana (the conceit of "I"), with the abandonment of that fetter (of "I") there is groundlessness, thus, then, no longer contact.

You said the Buddha would've disappeared under the Bodhi tree, while that is not correct given the aforementioned; it is not wrong to think that "someone" did disappear, for from that point on there was no longer an "I". As the suttas state (again, it's not my interpretation or conjecture) the sotapanna understands that, even while living, there is no Arahant to be found.
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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:candle:
Last edited by cappuccino on Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Ceisiwr »

nmjojola wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:23 pm [m
Bingo.

Paticcasamuppada (thus, the dhamma) is akalika (atemporal). This is another example of something that is repeated countless times and chanted every day on a regular basis at temples:

Yo so svākkhāto bhagavatā dhammo,
The Dhamma well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Sandiṭṭhiko akāliko ehipassiko,
to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting all to come & see.
It is, but what does akāliko mean? Seems to me it means that the extinguishment of the taints doesn’t take time. It’s immediate. That, however, doesn’t then mean all the links in dependent origination immediately cease.
Contacts contact depend on ground, and the ground here is asmimana (the conceit of "I"), with the abandonment of that fetter (of "I") there is groundlessness, thus, then, no longer contact.
Yet the Buddha still experienced sense objects and vedana, which would also mean contact. It would also help if you provided a reference for your Udana quote.
You said the Buddha would've disappeared under the Bodhi tree, while that is not correct given the aforementioned; it is not wrong to think that "someone" did disappear, for from that point on there was no longer an "I". As the suttas state (again, it's not my interpretation or conjecture) the sotapanna understands that, even while living, there is no Arahant to be found.
I’m not thinking of it in terms of an atta thingy. Your claim is that all of the links immediately cease, based in part it seems on your interpretation (there it is again) of “akāliko”. That would mean that consciousness, nama-rupa and the senses would have immediately ceased. It is in this sense that I say the implication of your argument is that “the Buddha” would have simply disappeared or passed into final Nibbana under the Bodhi tree. As we know, “he” did not. There was still consciousness, nama-rupa etc. If there weren’t, how on Earth did he even talk to people? It’s also a misunderstanding to say that there was someone who disappeared. To say there was an “I” that disappeared, or ceased, is annihilationism. The Buddha still had thoughts of “I”. What had ceased was seeing anything substantial in that. In other words, it was understood to be what it is. Namely merely a conventional word, thus being empty.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by josaphatbarlaam »

nmjojola wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:08 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:30 am The Buddha still experienced dukkha.
What an unfortunate view to hold.
If I had a nickel for every instance in the suttas that the Buddha and the Arahants declared freedom from dukkha, birth, aging, illness, and death - I would have a lot of nickels.
The hoops those who deny rebirth have to jump through...if one believs in rebirth its obvious the meaning of "freedom from dukkha, birth, aging, illness, and death", i.e. certainty that one will attain parinibbana at the end of that life and thus all those things end. But if rebirth is denied, one has to argue that back pain doesn't count as dukkha somehow. I am not saying you deny rebirth, as I don't know, but your position is mostly found among those who do. You might have merely been deceived by them without realizing their position is all based on a denial of rebirth.
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