Are the aggregates dukkha?

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Spiny Norman »

samseva wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:22 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:19 pm This is the crux of the issue, IMO. Is dukkha just mental pain?
The teaching of the three characteristics of existence/tilakkhaṇa—of anicca, dukkha and anattā—is one of the most fundamental and important teachings after the Four Nobles Truths.
Lakkhaṇa (nt.) [Vedic lakṣman nt. sign; adj. lakṣmaṇa; later Sk. lakṣmaṇa nt. In the defn of grammarians syn. with anka brand, e. g. Dhtp 536 "anka lakkhaṇe lakkha dassane," or Dhtm 748 "lakkha=dassanaanke"; cp. J i.451 lakkhaṇena anketi to brand. — The Sk. Np. Lakṣmaṇa appears also in Prk. as Lakkhaṇa: Pischel, Prk. Gr. § 312] 1. sign, characteristic, mark; esp. a sign as implying something extraordinary or pointing to the future, therefore a prognosticative mark (cp. talisman), a distinguishing mark or salient feature, property, quality
—PTS Dictionary
I think we all know the tilakkhana, but they don't support the claim that dukkha is only mental suffering.
"Sabbe sankhara dukkha" appears to mean that all formations are suffering, or that conditioned existence is suffering. The distinction between mental and bodily suffering is not apparent here.
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Spiny Norman »

samseva wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:32 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:26 pm
samseva wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:04 pm Dukkha is mental pain.
I don't think that has been clearly established
If you want to think dukkha is not mental pain—even though there are hundreds of Suttas that describe dukkha as such—and also that there is no such thing as dukkha as a characteristic—even though the Buddha literally taught the teaching of the three characteristics of existence—fine. That's not my problem.
A couple of suttas which clearly say dukkha isn't bodily pain would suffice. Any offers?
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samseva
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:33 pm I think we all know the tilakkhana, but they don't support the claim that dukkha is only mental suffering.
"Sabbe sankhara dukkha" appears to mean that all formations are suffering, or that conditioned existence is suffering. The distinction between mental and bodily suffering is not apparent here.
There is still bodily pain after reaching Nibbāna. What is meant as dukkha by the Buddha in the Four Noble Truths is dukkha as mental pain.

Such as when the Buddha had back aches in his later years:
Ānanda, let there occur to you a learner’s course for the Sakyans of Kapilavatthu; my back is aching, I will stretch it.” “Yes, revered sir,” the venerable Ānanda answered the Lord in assent. Then the Lord, having folded his outer robe into four, lay down on his right side in the lion posture, foot resting on foot, mindful, clearly conscious, reflecting on the thought of getting up again.
—MN 53
Spiny Norman
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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mjaviem wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:31 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:48 am The Bahiya Sutta appears to support the idea that dukkha depends on the presence of self-view.
"When there is no you there... This is the end of suffering".
Could you please use english instead of pali so I can follow what you mean? I agree with "that suffering depends on the presence of self-view. When there is no you there... This is the end of suffering".
Here's a link to the Bahiya Sutta:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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samseva wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:38 pm What is meant as dukkha by the Buddha in the Four Noble Truths is dukkha as mental pain.
This has not been clearly established. Does the First Truth include bodily pain as an example of dukkha, or is it just mental pain?
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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samseva
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by samseva »

Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:34 pm A couple of suttas which clearly say dukkha isn't bodily pain would suffice. Any offers?
That you ask to prove that something is something with an affirmative Sutta, is one thing. To ask for someone to provide a Sutta that says that something is not something is another.
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samseva
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by samseva »

Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:44 pm This has not been clearly established. The First Truth includes bodily pain as an example of dukkha.
The Sutta about the Four Noble Truths talks about bodily pain—not the Four Noble Truths themselves.
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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samseva wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:45 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:34 pm A couple of suttas which clearly say dukkha isn't bodily pain would suffice. Any offers?
That you ask to prove that something is something with an affirmative Sutta, is one thing. To ask for someone to provide a Sutta that says that something is not something is another.
OK. Then show a couple of suttas which clearly say dukkha is only mental pain.
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samseva
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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Bhikkhus, when the uninstructed worldling is being contacted by a painful feeling, he sorrows, grieves, and laments; he weeps beating his breast and becomes distraught. He feels two feelings—a bodily one and a mental one. Suppose they were to strike a man with a dart, and then they would strike him immediately afterwards with a second dart, so that the man would feel a feeling caused by two darts. So too, when the uninstructed worldling is being contacted by a painful feeling … he feels two feelings—a bodily one and a mental one.
[...]
Bhikkhus, when the instructed noble disciple is contacted by a painful feeling, he does not sorrow, grieve, or lament; he does not weep beating his breast and become distraught. He feels one feeling—a bodily one, not a mental one. Suppose they were to strike a man with a dart, but they would not strike him immediately afterwards with a second dart, so that the man would feel a feeling caused by one dart only. So too, when the instructed noble disciple is contacted by a painful feeling … he feels one feeling—a bodily one, not a mental one.
SN 36.6
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samseva
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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Sutavā ca kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno na socati, na kilamati, na paridevati, na urattāḷiṁ kandati, na sammohaṁ āpajjati. So ekaṁ vedanaṁ vedayati—kāyikaṁ, na cetasikaṁ.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:10 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:53 am Anatta doesn’t mean not experiencing anything. It means viewing experience correctly. If he is feeling pain then he is having an experience at that time, a painful one. Something is happening. If the Buddha didn’t experience anything he wouldn’t feel, hear, touch etc much less walk around talking to people, but he did. This may come of a shock to you, but I imagine he still had thoughts of “I am this” etc too.
Wrong. Or at least that's not Buddha-dhamma. There's nothing he possessed, nothing that he took as mine or I. A thought of "I am this" if present is not possessed by him. You can't stop believing in self, that's why you repeat "he is feeling" "he is having" "he feels, hears, touches, walks around". That's why you can't accept the idea of full-liberation in the present.
I imagine I’m using “he” in exactly the same way you are. Where did I say he adhered to thoughts of “I am this”? I didn’t. This is simply your straw man. What I did say is that the Buddha still had thoughts which contained “I am this”, and that he still experienced pain. He even said so himself. What you are doing instead is making rather bizarre claims regarding being able to know one is in pain whilst simultaneously not experiencing pain. You may as well be arguing that a square really is a circle for what sense it makes.
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samseva
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by samseva »

Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:47 pm OK. Then show a couple of suttas which clearly say dukkha is only mental pain.
At this point, you're just trying to make a semantic argument—with questionable requests.

Again, if you want to think dukkha in the Four Noble Truths is both mental and physical—even though there is no such thing described in the Four Noble Truths themselves—and that you want to think there is no such thing as dukkha as a characteristic—even though the Buddha's teaching of the three characteristics of existence (tilikkhaṇa) is one of the most important teachings after the Four Noble Truths—fine.
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mjaviem
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by mjaviem »

Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:42 pm
mjaviem wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:31 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:48 am The Bahiya Sutta appears to support the idea that dukkha depends on the presence of self-view.
"When there is no you there... This is the end of suffering".
Could you please use english instead of pali so I can follow what you mean? I agree with "that suffering depends on the presence of self-view. When there is no you there... This is the end of suffering".
Here's a link to the Bahiya Sutta:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:01 pm I imagine I’m using “he” in exactly the same way you are. Where did I say he adhered to thoughts of “I am this”? I didn’t. This is simply your straw man. What I did say is that the Buddha still had thoughts which contained “I am this”, and that he still experienced pain. He even said so himself. What you are doing instead is making rather bizarre claims regarding being able to know one is in pain whilst simultaneously not experiencing pain. You may as well be arguing that a square really is a circle for what sense it makes.
I already stated the definition of the verb "to experience" to which I adhere. I already posted that dukkha has a meaning of suffering which is originated by craving and a meaning of unsatisfactoriness which is part of the nature of everything. I already posted I believe dettachment from everything is possible by extingushing all I and mine making in the present. I already agreed that suffering seems to depend on the presence of self view. I really don't know what Spiny Norman is trying to tell me and Ceisiwr doesn't sound convincing when talking about this topic.
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by asahi »

To be specific or the wider view would be , without self view , arahants still have bodily dukkha ie pain which is an old kamma even though the mental suffering already ended .
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by mjaviem »

asahi wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:41 pm To be specific or the wider view would be , without self view , arahants still have bodily dukkha ie pain which is an old kamma even though the mental suffering already ended .
That's one of two positions in this great debate:
1.- Arahants do have bodily pain due to old kamma. Without self view, they ended mental suffering.
2.- Bodily pain does not belong to arahants. Without self view, they ended all suffering.
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