Are the aggregates dukkha?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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mjaviem
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by mjaviem »

samseva wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:44 pm Of course there's still pain. Why else would the Buddha feel his back ache?
mjaviem wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:26 am There's still bodily painful feeling, true.
[...]
but there's no pain
What do you think bodily pain is?
By "bodily pain" I think you mean painful feelings as when for example you roll on a hospital bed having a broken rib. Painful feelings are not a cause of pain for an arahant who sees clearly and can not attach and own that feeling. These feelings are painful because they lead to pain to ordinary people like me. But this is not the case for a Fully enlightened one. In my view they could even scream out of pain but that's only a bodily and mind reaction it's not them reacting since there's no them. The painful feeling is not theirs.
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samseva
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by samseva »

mjaviem wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:08 pm The painful feeling is not theirs.
Painful bodily feelings/bodily pain do not belong to the person, whether one is Enlightened or not.
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mjaviem
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by mjaviem »

samseva wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:12 pm
mjaviem wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:08 pm The painful feeling is not theirs.
Painful bodily feelings/bodily pain do not belong to the person, whether one is Enlightened or not.
Correct. But an unenlightened run-of-the-mill person owns them and feels miserable because of this.
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samseva
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by samseva »

mjaviem wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:17 pm Correct. But an unenlightened run-of-the-mill person owns them and feels miserable because of this.
Yes, he feels a mental vedanā along with the bodily vedanā.

Like described in the Salla Sutta:
Bhikkhus, when the uninstructed worldling is being contacted by a painful feeling, he sorrows, grieves, and laments; he weeps beating his breast and becomes distraught. He feels two feelings—a bodily one and a mental one. Suppose they were to strike a man with a dart, and then they would strike him immediately afterwards with a second dart, so that the man would feel a feeling caused by two darts. So too, when the uninstructed worldling is being contacted by a painful feeling … he feels two feelings—a bodily one and a mental one.

[...]

Bhikkhus, when the instructed noble disciple is contacted by a painful feeling, he does not sorrow, grieve, or lament; he does not weep beating his breast and become distraught. He feels one feeling—a bodily one, not a mental one. Suppose they were to strike a man with a dart, but they would not strike him immediately afterwards with a second dart, so that the man would feel a feeling caused by one dart only. So too, when the instructed noble disciple is contacted by a painful feeling … he feels one feeling—a bodily one, not a mental one.
—SN 36.6
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mjaviem
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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samseva wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:19 pm Yes, he feels a mental vedanā along with the bodily vedanā.

Like described in the Salla Sutta:
...
Yes. And this is not the case for an awakened one. The case for them is as follows:
...
Being contacted by that same painful feeling, he harbours no aversion towards it. Since he harbours no aversion towards painful feeling, the underlying tendency to aversion towards painful feeling does not lie behind this. Being contacted by painful feeling, he does not seek delight in sensual pleasure. For what reason? Because the instructed noble disciple knows of an escape from painful feeling other than sensual pleasure. Since he does not seek delight in sensual pleasure, the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feeling does not lie behind this. He understands as it really is the origin and the passing away, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of these feelings. Since he understands these things, the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling does not lie behind this.

“If he feels a pleasant feeling, he feels it detached. If he feels a painful feeling, he feels it detached. If he feels a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he feels it detached. This, bhikkhus, is called a noble disciple who is detached from birth, aging, and death; who is detached from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; who is detached from suffering, I say.

“This, bhikkhus, is the distinction, the disparity, the difference between the instructed noble disciple and the uninstructed worldling.”
...
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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mjaviem wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:08 pm […
Pain is simply an unpleasant. Something that isn’t liked. An ordinary person laments when they contact something they do not like. An Arahant does not when they contact something they do not like.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:13 pm
mjaviem wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:08 pm […
Pain is simply an unpleasant. Something that isn’t liked. An ordinary person laments when they contact something they do not like. An Arahant does not when they contact something they do not like.
They've stopped liking and disliking. This thread reminds me of samsara. It goes round and round.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:15 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:13 pm
mjaviem wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:08 pm […
Pain is simply an unpleasant. Something that isn’t liked. An ordinary person laments when they contact something they do not like. An Arahant does not when they contact something they do not like.
They've stopped liking and disliking. This thread reminds me of samsara. It goes round and round.
It’s detachment from liking and disliking, not the end of it. This is why they still have physical and mental pain.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by asahi »

Who do Buddha needs to lie down in the first place if He has detached from feelings and even bother to say His back in pain ?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Ceisiwr »

asahi wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:47 pm Who do Buddha needs to lie down in the first place if He has detached from feelings and even bother to say His back in pain ?
To make himself more comfortable, obviously.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:27 pm
mjaviem wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:15 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:13 pm

Pain is simply an unpleasant. Something that isn’t liked. An ordinary person laments when they contact something they do not like. An Arahant does not when they contact something they do not like.
They've stopped liking and disliking. This thread reminds me of samsara. It goes round and round.
It’s detachment from liking and disliking, not the end of it. This is why they still have physical and mental pain.
But Nibbana is the cessation of craving and aversion, which means the cessation of liking and disliking. So there is no longer resistance to painful feeling, which is therefore felt detached (as per the Arrow Sutta).
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

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Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:30 pm
But Nibbana is the cessation of craving and aversion, which means the cessation of liking and disliking. So there is no longer resistance to painful feeling, which is therefore felt detached (as per the Arrow Sutta).
Liking and disliking (sukhaṁ vā dukkhaṁ) remain, until death. The underlying tendencies in relation to them however no longer exist, and so there is no 2nd dart on account of that. What the Buddha found pleasing or displeasing wouldn’t be the same as what Ven. Mahākassapa found pleasing or displeasing. They would have different types of contacts, but both would be free from the 2nd dart. Another example, what is visually pleasing to me would be different to what is visually pleasing to a straight man. If we both awaken our vedanā based on visual contact will be different, but we would both be without the 2nd dart in relation to said contact. The same with mental contacts too. Both the Buddha and Ven. Mahākassapa still had unpleasant mental contacts, but what they found pleasant or unpleasant in relation to mental contact would have varied.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by bpallister »

Did the Buddha neither like nor dislike his back pain?
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by Bundokji »

Can there be aggregates without clinging to them?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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samseva
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Re: Are the aggregates dukkha?

Post by samseva »

For an arahant, there is still physical pain (such as the Buddha's back pain in MN 53). There is also DN 16, which is even more descriptive of the Buddha's physical pain, just before his passing away:
And during the Rains the Lord was attacked by a severe sickness, with sharp pains as if he were about to die. But he endured all this mindfully, clearly aware and without complaining.
Atha kho bhagavato vassūpagatassa kharo ābādho uppajji, bāḷhā vedanā vattanti māraṇantikā. Tā sudaṁ bhagavā sato sampajāno adhivāsesi avihaññamāno.
—DN 16

However, for an Enlightened person, there is no more mental suffering, from having uprooted its cause (taṇhā), as with the third of the Four Noble Truths—the cessation of dukkha:
dukkhanirodhaṁ ariyasaccaṁ
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