Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Post Reply
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8151
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Coëmgenu »

Do you have a quote? I've a contrary one from the Kośa if so, which I've trotted out before. The Vibhāṣa would have a better pedigree than the Kośa though.

BTW, are you thinking of the citation of the Arthaviniścayasūtra from this thread?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
Assaji
Posts: 2106
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Assaji »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:36 pm Here it is
No need to wonder why and mount a critique of the Comy. If you pay closer attention to the sutta, it says -

“so ce ahaṃ, brāhmaṇa, evaṃbhūto caṅkamāmi, dibbo me eso tasmiṃ samaye caṅkamo hoti”

It does NOT say -

“so ce ahaṃ, brāhmaṇa, evaṃbhūtā caṅkamāmi, dibbo me eso tesu samayesu caṅkamo hoti”

Sometimes, the simplest answer is found in whether the inflection is in the plural or singular. That passage describes (i) establishment of mindfulness, and (ii) 4 jhanas. Since the Pali is in the singular, which of these 2 would the walking passage refer to?
Thank you, but the commentarial interpretation, in Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, makes much more sense.
Last edited by Assaji on Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8151
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Coëmgenu »

So I've found some information from the Mahāvibhāṣa that contradicts Abhidharmakośa, but I also found (in Tse-fu Kuan's text Clarification on Feelings in Buddhist "Dhyāna/Jhāna" Meditation at p. 298 footnote 49) the possible source of Ven Vasubandhu's assertion of those three consciousnesses in the first dhyāna. He is following Abhidharmāmṛta. Following Kuan's untranslated footnote, we see the passage pick off after describing the five factors of the first dhyāna...
[...] 是初禪五支。
[...] these are the five roots of the first dhyāna.

婬欲大苦罪不樂離力安隱出。
Sensual desire, great suffering, the unwholesome (dharmas), and unhappiness are removed, and a powerful tranquil seclusion (安隱 praśrabdhi) emerges.

如是思惟欲等。諸善法心中生。
Considering desire and such like this, the myriad wholesome dharmas arise within the mind.

是謂得初禪道。
This is called "attaining the path of the first dhyāna."

是三痛根相應。喜樂護根。
There are three sensations (痛 vedanā) corresponding to faculties (根 indriyāni). Joy (喜 prīti) and happiness (樂 sukha) guard (?) the faculties.

樂根三識身相應。眼耳身識。
The happiness-faculty (樂根 sukhendriya) corresponds to three bodies of consciousness (識身 vijñānakāya): the eye, the ear, and body-consciousness (身識 kāyavijñāna).
(T1553.975a)

There is a part marked (?) that I'm particularly unsure concerning.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
Assaji
Posts: 2106
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Assaji »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:50 pm If ekaggatā is a universal caitasika and there is no non-jhānic ekaggatā, how does this not imply that jhāna is intrinsic to all conscious experience?
I never said to you that "ekaggatā is a universal caitasika". Seems like your question is directed towards some imaginary medieval Abhidhamma adept, whom I am not.
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8151
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Coëmgenu »

I don't know how it would seem like that, unless you thought it like that. I was asking a question, nothing more, nothing less. If you don't consider ekaggatā to be a universal caitasika, that's a perfectly fine response.
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:43 pmI'll post more on this later when I have time.
The section on restraining the senses from the Dharmatrātadhyānasūtra:
[...] the Buddha had made mention of six living beings in the sūtra to practitioners by analogy to the six entrances for them to observe adequately. That is what is known as the eyes are, indeed, dogs running around in the village of five colours; the ears are birds flying around, following seeming sounds in the sky; the nose is a poisonous snake chasing after the cave of perfume; the tongue is a hyena which is greedy for the dead body of five tastes; the body is a crocodile which is always happy to enter the sea of touch; and the mind is a monkey which is always happy wandering in the forest of dharma of the three reincarnations. These six types of living beings should be restrained at one place without being able to go where they want. The practitioner, on the other hand, should do the same. He must compose his mind and employ proper mindfulness with equipoise to restrain his six organs, disallowing them to run after what they aspire to. Then he should meditate on the Buddha's teachings by using pure and clear wisdom. Through such type of proper meditation, even the common folks with delusion can eradicate the greed, the attachment, the aspirations and the immeasurable evil ways gathered from the six object-domains of the senses. This proper observation can, indeed, extinguish all living beings‘ attachment to their sensory object-domains and their self-imposed hindrance towards nirvāṇa. Therefore, practitioners wishing to break away from births and deaths and strive for nirvāṇa must conquer all their sense organs and keep away from all sensory fields
(Dharmatrātadhyānasūtra, Section 16, "Discourse on the Meditations on Entrances in Spiritual Cultivation," translated by Chan Yiu Wing)
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
Assaji
Posts: 2106
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Assaji »

samseva wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:46 pm
Assaji wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:31 pm Walking is very well suited for jhāna
Why would walking be "very well suited for jhāna"? That is solely your opinion.
Please read my posts in this thread.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22410
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Ceisiwr »

Assaji wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:40 am
Thank you, but the commentarial interpretation, in Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, makes much more sense.
What lead you to that conclusion?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22410
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:39 am Do you have a quote? I've a contrary one from the Kośa if so, which I've trotted out before. The Vibhāṣa would have a better pedigree than the Kośa though.

BTW, are you thinking of the citation of the Arthaviniścayasūtra from this thread?
Something else, but I’m in work atm for a few hours. I’ll be home later today.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
samseva
Posts: 3045
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by samseva »

nirodh27 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:40 pm It seems very clear to me that that single sutta says that you can walk in fourth Jhana.
That "clear" understanding is based on a translation.
nirodh27 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:40 pm I've read the "argument of grammar" topic and it is clear that the walking refers to the jhanas
Clear how? And the topic mostly says precisely the opposite.
nirodh27 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:40 pm and not the establishment of mindfulness given the ordering of the sutta. After all, also the proposer of the argument concludes:
"Proposer of the argument concludes"? What? He's not the one who started the thread or "proposed" the argument. And he doesn't even say anything at all about walking while in jhāna:
piotr wrote: Tue May 27, 2014 11:08 am I'm not even sure if the "argument from grammar" is conclusive. If you read whole sutta you can conclude that it's not the establishment of sati that makes Buddha's walking, standing, sitting or laying down divine or noble, but states which proceed after the establishment of sati, namely: jhānas, brahmavihāras and retrospective knowledge of attainment of arahantship.
He's simply saying having meditated and done jhāna is what made the Buddha's walking, sitting and so on divine. Which is correct. It doesn't mean Buddha was in jhāna while walking.
User avatar
samseva
Posts: 3045
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by samseva »

Has anyone not had a particularly good meditation session, and coming out of that meditation just marveled at how just walking and how one's state of mind is so pure?

Anyway, there is only a single Sutta and passage that talks about walking and jhāna, which is incorrectly interpreted. To instantly conclude that walking while in jhāna is possible—based on one small passage in one Sutta—is significantly jumping to a conclusion.

If walking while in jhāna would be possible, there would be many instances where it would be described in the Suttas—not simply a single obscure passage. The Buddha would likely even have taught it.
User avatar
nirodh27
Posts: 681
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:31 pm

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by nirodh27 »

samseva wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:56 am
In my post I've commented only the first proposition from
Sylvester (the one quoted by Ceisiwr), while I've missed the second argument as I've tried to say in my following post.

Since I don't know Pali and I can't judge the nuances, I can't make a conclusion based on the Pali about the sutta saying if the Buddha is in fourth Jhana while walking or if it is out of fourth Jhana and then walks.There's no mention either of the Buddha exiting fourth Jhana before making the celestial walk so it will be jumping to conclusions on both sides if we reason about the single sutta (if we have already concluded that jhana is strong absorption or something other, of course we can infuse the passage with that understanding, but it is a different issue)

I can only read BB translation and with that translation
(A) I enter and dwell in the fourth jhāna, neither painful nor pleasant, which has purification of mindfulness by equanimity.

(B)“When I am in such a state,


it doesn't seem obscure at all since you have a "when" that refers to a state that can only be last one mentioned that is the fourth jhana, there's no "after" here, but if someone raises a point based on Pali that needs such deep pali knowledge, I can only raise my hands and suspend judgement. I can make conclusion infused by previous knowledge/opinions.

It would be good to have more opinions/translations of Pali experts about this passage and how sentence A is linked to sentence B.
User avatar
samseva
Posts: 3045
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by samseva »

To disregard an odd interpretation—which is solely based on a small passage in a single Sutta—is not jumping to a conclusion—it's simply disregarding an odd interpretation. To completely modify one's whole understanding of jhāna, based on a small obscure passage in a Sutta, is jumping to a conclusion.
nirodh27 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:58 am It would be good to have more opinions/translations of Pali experts about this passage and how sentence A is linked to sentence B.
It's not. And it would rather be for the "walking while in jhāna" proponents to prove that it is. Like I said in my earlier post, there is only this small obscure and misinterpreted passage—and if walking while in jhāna would be possible, there would be many instances where it would be described in the Suttas.
User avatar
frank k
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by frank k »

samseva wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:34 pm ...if walking while in jhāna would be possible, there would be many instances where it would be described in the Suttas.
If it were possible to eat food and walk at the same time there would be many suttas that say this.

If it were possible to close your eyes in sitting in meditation, there would be many suttas that say this. But there are no suttas that say one closes their eyes in meditation therefore this is not possible.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
User avatar
samseva
Posts: 3045
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by samseva »

frank k wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:48 pm If it were possible to eat food and walk at the same time there would be many suttas that say this.

If it were possible to close your eyes in sitting in meditation, there would be many suttas that say this. But there are no suttas that say one closes their eyes in meditation therefore this is not possible.
Why would there ever be such ridiculous things mentioned in the Suttas? You're just making a reductio ad absurdum (reduction to absurdity).
User avatar
nirodh27
Posts: 681
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:31 pm

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by nirodh27 »

samseva wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:34 pm To disregard an odd interpretation—which is solely based on a small passage in a single Sutta—is not jumping to a conclusion—it's simply disregarding an odd interpretation. To completely modify one's whole understanding of jhāna, based on a small obscure passage in a Sutta, is jumping to a conclusion.
Frankk or others have an understanding of Jhana that is opposed to yours and it is informed by many passages and research. They could be wrong, but for them it is the same, based on their interpretation the 4th Jhana walking fits well. The same I think for user Assaji.
this small obscure and misinterpreted passage
Your opinion. The passage is clear as pure water if we take BB translation as correct. The argument about the pali and the translation again I raise my hands, but for you this is not so important at this point.
if walking while in jhāna would be possible, there would be many instances where it would be described in the Suttas.
Some important Dhamma concepts have one or very few repetitions in the main nikayas. The definiton of Sabbe, the definition of Sati as memory, MN22, MN14 have important passages that I don't think are somewhere else. MN1 also.

This passage is not very important, since at the time of the Buddha Jhanas were not debated at all and their nature was clear thanks to the Buddha's presence and direct explanations. No-one had the slightest doubt of their nature, nor it is hard to imagine that it was an heavily discussed topic, but only for practice purposes (given a cristal clear nature).

To know if you can walk in them or not is obvious if you pick a side. If I picked yours, I would dismiss the passage even if it was written "when I was still in fourth Jhana, without exiting fourth jhana, i walked back and forth". Because it can't possibly fit absorption as teached in the Visuddhimagga.

The important thing for the modern practitioner is to choose between absorption and collectedness or a third way using all the hints in the canon. Because we don't have a F.A.Q. about Jhana, we can't ask to Arahants and the Jhana practice is evidently not perfectly defined in the canon (the problem of Vitakka/Vicara, the never used access concentration, the body witch is mental, so many problems that you simply can't unsee) and at the same time for everyone that have red the suttas Jhanas are a crucial part of the path, you can't dismiss them or do operations like the "jhana-lite" thing.

I think both positions are clear. Sorry for my second message that was plagued by an initially incomplete read of the post you cited.

With metta.
Post Reply