Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Ceisiwr »

:focus:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Ceisiwr »

nirodh27 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:43 pm ...
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Assaji »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:50 am
Assaji wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:40 am
Thank you, but the commentarial interpretation, in Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, makes much more sense.
What lead you to that conclusion?
It seems redundant to relate my thought process, when Piotr summarized the conclusion very lucidly:
piotr wrote: Tue May 27, 2014 11:08 am I'm not even sure if the "argument from grammar" is conclusive. If you read whole sutta you can conclude that it's not the establishment of sati that makes Buddha's walking, standing, sitting or laying down divine or noble, but states which proceed after the establishment of sati, namely: jhānas, brahmavihāras and retrospective knowledge of attainment of arahantship.
:anjali:
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Ceisiwr »

Assaji wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:20 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:50 am
Assaji wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:40 am
Thank you, but the commentarial interpretation, in Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, makes much more sense.
What lead you to that conclusion?
It seems redundant to relate my thought process, when Piotr summarized the conclusion very lucidly:
piotr wrote: Tue May 27, 2014 11:08 am I'm not even sure if the "argument from grammar" is conclusive. If you read whole sutta you can conclude that it's not the establishment of sati that makes Buddha's walking, standing, sitting or laying down divine or noble, but states which proceed after the establishment of sati, namely: jhānas, brahmavihāras and retrospective knowledge of attainment of arahantship.
:anjali:
I see. Sylvester agreed that the prior argument was not conclusive (which doesn't mean wrong), but that another aspect of the grammar was more convincing.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:41 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:37 pm Regardless, how is it supposed to have happened if the only objects of cognition for his class of deva were their own pīti and sukkha?
I have asked myself and was never given any kind of satisfactory reply, not that that has anything to do with why I don't accept the narrative. I think a large part of the cosmology is constructed to match meditation with some destination after death in order to bring them in line with the Buddha's teachings regarding rebirth. Being somewhat artificial there are then going to be anomalies. For example, the Asaññasatta deities. If that realm is completely without perception no one would ever know about it, unless they had the mind of God. I don't think the passage I quoted is from the Buddha either by the way. I think this is the ancient sangha doing the same, matching meditation to states after death to construct a cosmology. What is more interesting is in how they define the attainments, rather than the destinations IMO.
Regarding the asaññasattas, the Buddha can see them with his Buddha-eye regardless their experience or lack thereof. That's a possible answer. And, yes, I agree with the experiences of the devas in the corresponding heavens being based on the experiences of the dhyānas as states of being. That seems to be how historical Buddhists treated these matters.
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Assaji »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:28 pm I see. Sylvester agreed that the prior argument was not conclusive (which doesn't mean wrong), but that another aspect of the grammar was more convincing.
Sylvester's second argument is interesting grammatically, but still Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations sound closer to the original, as in Sylvester's example:
Sylvester wrote: Thu May 29, 2014 3:11 am Let's see how AN 4.11's evaṃbhūto comes to be translated by BB verse Woodward -
Carato cepi, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno abhijjhābyāpādo vigato hoti, thinamiddhaṃ… uddhaccakukkuccaṃ… vicikicchā pahīnā hoti, āraddhaṃ hoti vīriyaṃ asallīnaṃ, upaṭṭhitā sati asammuṭṭhā, passaddho kāyo asāraddho, samāhitaṃ cittaṃ ekaggaṃ, carampi, bhikkhave, bhikkhu evaṃbhūto ‘ātāpī ottāpī satataṃ samitaṃ āraddhavīriyo pahitatto’ti vuccati.
Bhikkhus, if a sensual thought, a thought of ill will, or a thought of harming arises in a bhikkhu while walking, and he tolerates it, does not abandon it, dispel it, terminate it, and obliterate it, then that bhikkhu is said to be devoid of ardor and moral dread; he is constantly and continuously lazy and lacking in energy while walking
.

trans BB
Monks, if while he walks there arise in a monk thoughts sensual or malign or cruel, and that monk admits them, does not reject and expel them, does not make an end of them, does not drive them out of renewed existence, a monk who while walking becomes thus is called “ void of zeal and unscrupulous, always and for ever sluggish and poor in energy."

trans Woodward
"Always and forever" doesn't agree with "becomes thus".

Evidently, Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi has improved the translation of some Pali expressions, contributing to the understanding of Pali grammar.

Indeed, there may be some vagueness of time, since some of the Pali forms are identical for past and present. However, their demarcation of time can be deduced from context.
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Coëmgenu »

Linking up the modalities of the experiences of the gods to the experiences of the dhyānas will lead you to a Mahāyāna-style dhyāna, as I'm familiar with them. In the Aggaññasutta, the first to fall from the station of a god of streaming radiance in the heaven of the second jhāna is Mahābrahmā, who presumably is in the heaven of the first during his birth as said Brahmā deity. He is able to perceive the heaven filling with beings, and the lower worlds too. This involves divided attention. If he is always preoccupied with the nimitta and/or the five factors of his jhānic existence, he can't do most of the things he is described as doing in the suttas, such as incorrectly comparing himself to other sentient beings and thinking he's the immortal firstborn. Am I wrong here?

For Theravāda-style jhānas, if the modality of deity-style experience is the same as the experience of the jhāna, then they can't interact at all with the lower realms.

This is addressed in Abhidharmakośakārikā. I can post the bit tonight or tomorrow.

Also, if the modalities of deity-style experience are linked with the jhānas, the passage about celestial walking becomes about jhāna. So likely they aren't linked like that in Theravāda.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:23 pm, edited 4 times in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by samseva »

Assaji wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:12 pm [...]
It's still an obscure passage, from a single Sutta. Even if "walking while in jhāna" were the correct translation, this wouldn't be conclusive, and definitely not enough to warrant completely changing our understanding of jhāna, IMO.

If jhāna while walking were possible, it would likely be mentioned, at the very least in more than one small passage.
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:18 pm Linking up the modalities of the experiences of the gods to the experiences of the dhyānas will lead you to a Mahāyāna-style dhyāna, as I'm familiar with them. In the Aggaññasutta, the first to fall from the station of a god of streaming radiance in the heaven of the second jhāna is Mahābrahmā, who presumably is in the heaven of the first during his birth as said Brahmā deity. He is able to perceive the heaven filling with beings, and the lower worlds too. This involves divided attention. If he is always preoccupied with the nimitta and/or the five factors of his jhānic existence, he can't do most of the things he is described as doing in the suttas, such as incorrectly comparing himself to other sentient beings and thinking he's the immortal firstborn. Am I wrong here?
I think you are correct. I don't know how the commentaries get around it, although I'm sure they give it a go. Personally I think the attainments came first and the cosmology was grafted on later, which is why there are said anomalies. Based on the passage I quoted the deities can't do much in their realms, since according to the Sthaviras and Mahāsāṃghikas they should be totally absorbed in their respective attainments.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Ceisiwr »

Assaji wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:12 pm "Always and forever" doesn't agree with "becomes thus".

Evidently, Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi has improved the translation of some Pali expressions, contributing to the understanding of Pali grammar.

Indeed, there may be some vagueness of time, since some of the Pali forms are identical for past and present. However, their demarcation of time can be deduced from context.
If I understand the argument correctly the options are between

"Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is celestial. If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is celestial. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is celestial. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my celestial high and luxurious bed. This is that celestial high and luxurious bed that at present I can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty."

or

"Then, brahmin, having become thus, if I pace, on that occasion my walking back and forth is celestial. If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is celestial. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is celestial. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my celestial high and luxurious bed. This is that celestial high and luxurious bed that at present I can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty."

Which give two different interpretations. The question then arises, how can someone walk whilst in Jhāna when if we take the 1st Jhāna it is of 1 perception? Walking would require multiple perceptions, no?

“There are, Ānanda, beings who are diverse in body and diverse in perception, such as human beings, some gods, and some beings in the lower realms. This is the first station for consciousness.

There are beings who are diverse in body but identical in perception, such as the gods of the Brahma-order who are generated through the first (jhāna). This is the second station for consciousness."
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Ceisiwr »

I was reading the Chāndogyopaniṣad again today. I flicked to a random page, and it was one where Jhāna was directly mentioned. Since the Chāndogyopaniṣad pre-dates the Buddha, is this evidence that the Jhānas also pre-date him?
ध्यानं वाव चित्ताद्भूयो ध्यायतीव पृथिवी ध्यायतीवान्तरिक्षं ध्यायतीव द्यौर्ध्यायन्तीवापो ध्यायन्तीव पर्वता देवमनुष्यास्तस्माद्य इह मनुष्याणां महत्तां प्राप्नुवन्ति ध्यानापादांशा इवैव ते भवन्त्यथ येऽल्पाः कलहिनः पिशुना उपवादिनस्तेऽथ ये प्रभवो ध्यानापादांशा इवैव ते भवन्ति ध्यानमुपास्स्वेति ॥ ७.६.१ ॥

dhyānaṃ vāva cittādbhūyo dhyāyatīva pṛthivī dhyāyatīvāntarikṣaṃ dhyāyatīva dyaurdhyāyantīvāpo dhyāyantīva parvatā devamanuṣyāstasmādya iha manuṣyāṇāṃ mahattāṃ prāpnuvanti dhyānāpādāṃśā ivaiva te bhavantyatha ye'lpāḥ kalahinaḥ piśunā upavādinaste'tha ye prabhavo dhyānāpādāṃśā ivaiva te bhavanti dhyānamupāssveti || 7.6.1 ||

1. Meditation [dhyāna] is certainly superior to intelligence [citta]. The earth seems to be meditating. The space between the earth and heaven seems to be meditating. So also, heaven seems to be meditating. Water seems to be meditating. The mountains seem to be meditating. Gods and human beings also seem to be meditating.

Commentary
This is why, those people in this world who attain greatness seem to enjoy the fruits of meditation. But there are people of small calibre. They are quarrelsome, crooked, and always finding fault with others. Those who are great, however, are so because of their habit of meditation. Therefore worship meditation.

According to Śaṅkara, dhyāna is an uninterrupted stream of thought directed towards some object. Thinking of some idea, you concentrate your mind on it without breaking the flow, without any interruption—like pouring oil from one vessel to another in a continuous stream. In the same way, you must fix your mind on God. You may meditate on him as something abstract, as an idea. Or, if that is difficult, you may meditate on him with some kind of form.

Sanatkumāra says here that everything seems to be meditating—the earth, the intermediate region, heaven, the mountains. Once Swami Vivekananda said: ‘Look at the Himalayas. Does it not strike you that it is a yogi meditating?’ Śaṅkara also compares the earth to a yogi sitting in meditation, firm and unmoving. As the earth is steady and fixed, so we also should be steady and fixed when we meditate.

Before Buddha attained illumination he vowed:

Ihāsane śuṣyatu me śarīraṃ tvagasthimāṃsaṃ pralayaṃ ca yātu;
Aprāpya bodhiṃ bahukalpadurlabhāṃ naivāsanātkāyamataścaliṣyate.

May my body shrivel up on this seat; may my skin, bones, and flesh disintegrate. Without attaining enlightenment, which is so hard to attain, I shall not leave this seat.

This is the sort of determination we must have.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:01 pm I was reading the Chāndogyopaniṣad again today. I flicked to a random page, and it was one where Jhāna was directly mentioned. Since the Chāndogyopaniṣad pre-dates the Buddha, is this evidence that the Jhānas also pre-date him?

1. Meditation [dhyāna] is certainly superior to intelligence...


This is the sort of determination we must have.
Certain practices that are termed jhana certainly do... OM.
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:01 pm
upanisad wrote:Sanatkumāra says here
Sanatkumara was also during Buddha were living, that Brahma is mentioned in multiple suttas
https://suttacentral.net/dn18/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: That is the topic on which Brahmā Sanaṅkumāra spoke.
Imamatthaṁ, bhante, brahmā sanaṅkumāro bhāsittha;
And while he was speaking on that topic, each of the gods fancied,
imamatthaṁ, bhante, brahmuno sanaṅkumārassa bhāsato ghosoyeva devā maññanti:
“The one sitting on my couch is the only one speaking.”
“yvāyaṁ mama pallaṅke svāyaṁ ekova bhāsatī”ti.

When one is speaking,
Ekasmiṁ bhāsamānasmiṁ,
all the forms speak.
sabbe bhāsanti nimmitā;
When one sits in silence,
Ekasmiṁ tuṇhimāsīne,
they all remain silent.
sabbe tuṇhī bhavanti te.

But those gods imagine—
Tadāsu devā maññanti,
the Thirty-Three with their Lord—
tāvatiṁsā sahindakā;
that the one on their seat
Yvāyaṁ mama pallaṅkasmiṁ,
is the only one to speak.
svāyaṁ ekova bhāsatīti.

The Brahmā Sanaṅkumāra merged into one corporeal form. Then he sat on the couch of Sakka, lord of gods, and addressed the gods of the Thirty-Three:
Atha kho, bhante, brahmā sanaṅkumāro ekattena attānaṁ upasaṁharati, ekattena attānaṁ upasaṁharitvā sakkassa devānamindassa pallaṅke pallaṅkena nisīditvā deve tāvatiṁse āmantesi:
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Assaji »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:48 pm The question then arises, how can someone walk whilst in Jhāna when if we take the 1st Jhāna it is of 1 perception? Walking would require multiple perceptions, no?
'Ekaggatā' of jhāna means that one basis (ārammaṇa) is predominant:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5550

However, other bases may still be perceived on the periphery.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:48 pm “There are, Ānanda, beings who are diverse in body and diverse in perception, such as human beings, some gods, and some beings in the lower realms. This is the first station for consciousness.

There are beings who are diverse in body but identical in perception, such as the gods of the Brahma-order who are generated through the first (jhāna). This is the second station for consciousness."
This passage is explained in the Commentary (sorry, no full translation, I don't have at hand the edition BODHI, BHIKKHU: The Great Discourse on Causation: The Mahānidāna Sutta and Its Commentaries: Buddhist Publication Society, 1995 — ISBN 9789552401176 )
brahmakāyikāti brahmapārisajjabrahmapurohitamahābrahmāno. paṭhamābhinibbattāti te sabbepi paṭhamena jhānena abhinibbattā. tesu brahmapārisajjā pana parittena abhinibbattā, tesaṃ kappassa tatiyo bhāgo āyuppamāṇaṃ. brahmapurohitā majjhimena, tesaṃ upaḍḍhakappo āyuppamāṇaṃ, kāyo ca tesaṃ vipphārikataro hoti. mahābrahmāno paṇītena, tesaṃ kappo āyuppamāṇaṃ, kāyo pana tesaṃ ativipphāriko hoti. iti te kāyassa nānattā, paṭhamajjhānavasena saññāya ekattā nānattakāyā ekattasaññinoti veditabbā.
It says that these beings are single [ekatta] in selective recognition [saññā] since, by the power of the first jhana [paṭhamajjhānavasena], they all have the singleness [ekattā] of selective recognition. And the term ekattā means essentially the same as ekaggatā - predominance of one basis.

See on ekattā the CPD article https://cpd.uni-koeln.de/search?article_id=19440
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by frank k »

LBT follower would just say, (in response to AN 5.29 quote below), the samadhi is not attained WHILE walking because of some pali grammar reason. While walking, it's not samadhi, but after walking and sitting, then you get the long lasting samadhi.
On his notes for AN 4.41 Sujato uses weird sophistic reasoning like that to try to explain away the functions of jhana in seeing light and samapajano (of 3rd jhana prominently) observing rise and fall of vedana, sanna, vitakka, as not being actually part of samadhi and jhana (while you're in that attianment), but the samadhi bhavana is something you do that supports "real jhana".

A better sutta citation would be AN 8.63, the 4sp satipatthana are explicitly called "samadhi", and MN 125 explicitly equates doing 4sp having already removed 5 hindrances and having no kama vitakka, as first jhana. So that stage of 4sp that can walk, think, hear sounds, is exactly the same as a walking first jhana that can talk, hear sounds, think. The elephant similes in MN 125 make that really clear. The elephant isn't being blind folded, ear plugs put in, led into a cave under a big mountain with the entrance shut off. Just as the 4 jhana similes of AN 5.28 are describing exactly what feels like experientially, so is the war elephant here using jhana aware of body and senses through all 4 jhanas.

Assaji wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:17 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:00 pm So, in Theravāda, "access jhāna" can be had while not in seated meditation? It doesn't say "while walking," it says "while he stood." Can "access jhāna" not be had while moving?
Samādhi can be attained even while walking:
Monks, there are these five benefits of walking up & down. What five?

One is fit for long journeys; one is fit for striving; one has little disease; that which is eaten, drunk, chewed, tasted, goes through proper digestion; the composure (samādhi) attained by walking up & down is long-lasting.

These, monks, are the five benefits of walking up & down.
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