Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
auto
Posts: 4584
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:01 am ..
The practice in mn111 is vipassana. Perhaps pañña has external perception while person is internally absorbed in jhāna.

an9.36 literally says depending on jhāna,
https://suttacentral.net/an9.36/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:“Mendicants, I say that the first absorption is a basis for ending the defilements.
“Paṭhamampāhaṁ, bhikkhave, jhānaṁ nissāya āsavānaṁ khayaṁ vadāmi;
samādhi practice doesn't remove āsava, it focuses on ferreting out, non-distraction. While sīla is about restraint.

pañña seem to be the singular term for when concentration is together with enlightenment factors forming the basis for the power(iddhi), or whatever the word here means,
chandasamādhippadhānasaṅkhārasamannāgataṁ iddhipādaṁ
vīriya..
citta..
vīmaṁsā..
https://suttacentral.net/sn51.15/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:“It’s when a mendicant develops the basis of psychic power that has immersion due to enthusiasm …
“Idha, brāhmaṇa, bhikkhu chandasamādhippadhānasaṅkhārasamannāgataṁ iddhipādaṁ bhāveti,
Kv interpretation you say? Kv sounds more like a hindsight for children who needs special care. And i need lots of care.
frank k wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:01 am You won't come out and say it explicitly but it sounds like you're favoring Tv Ab Kv wrong interpretation of jhana over the Buddha's description of jhana in MN 111, and not explaining how MN 111 doesn't contradict Kv, if that's your belief.
auto
Posts: 4584
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by auto »

Dweller wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:53 pm Isn't there a sutta where Buddha couldn't hear or feel there was a thunderstorm while he was in meditation?
dn16
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/DN/DN16.html wrote:“‘Just now, lord—when the rain-deva was raining, the rain-deva was pouring, lightning-streaks were shooting out, and a thunderbolt split (the air)—two farmers—brothers—were killed, along with four oxen. That’s why this great crowd of people has gathered. But you, lord: Where were you?’

“‘I was right here, friend.’

“‘But did you see anything?’

“‘No, friend, I didn’t.”

“‘But did you hear the sound?’

“‘No, friend, I didn’t.’

“‘But were you asleep?’

“‘No, friend, I wasn’t asleep.’

“‘But were you conscious?’

“‘Yes, friend.’

“‘Then, lord, being conscious & awake when the rain-deva was raining, the rain-deva was pouring, lightning-streaks were shooting out, and a thunderbolt split (the air), you neither saw anything nor heard a sound.’

“‘Yes, friend.’

“Then the thought occurred to that man, ‘How amazing! How astounding: the peaceful abiding by which those gone forth abide—in that, when the rain-deva was raining, the rain-deva was pouring, lightning-streaks were shooting out, and a thunderbolt split (the air), he would neither see them nor hear a sound!’ Having proclaimed immense conviction in me, he circumambulated me and then left.”
Dweller
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:14 pm

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Dweller »

Thanks!

To me it's interesting how it says that it happened in "peaceful abiding by which those gone forth abide".
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by confusedlayman »

u cant hear sound in jhana, if u hear then jhana is not purified and u need to reenter again
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by confusedlayman »

auto wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:21 pm
Dweller wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:53 pm Isn't there a sutta where Buddha couldn't hear or feel there was a thunderstorm while he was in meditation?
dn16
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/DN/DN16.html wrote:“‘Just now, lord—when the rain-deva was raining, the rain-deva was pouring, lightning-streaks were shooting out, and a thunderbolt split (the air)—two farmers—brothers—were killed, along with four oxen. That’s why this great crowd of people has gathered. But you, lord: Where were you?’

“‘I was right here, friend.’

“‘But did you see anything?’

“‘No, friend, I didn’t.”

“‘But did you hear the sound?’

“‘No, friend, I didn’t.’

“‘But were you asleep?’

“‘No, friend, I wasn’t asleep.’

“‘But were you conscious?’

“‘Yes, friend.’

“‘Then, lord, being conscious & awake when the rain-deva was raining, the rain-deva was pouring, lightning-streaks were shooting out, and a thunderbolt split (the air), you neither saw anything nor heard a sound.’

“‘Yes, friend.’

“Then the thought occurred to that man, ‘How amazing! How astounding: the peaceful abiding by which those gone forth abide—in that, when the rain-deva was raining, the rain-deva was pouring, lightning-streaks were shooting out, and a thunderbolt split (the air), he would neither see them nor hear a sound!’ Having proclaimed immense conviction in me, he circumambulated me and then left.”
was he in meditation or he was just not directing attention to any thing but outside meditation?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
auto
Posts: 4584
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by auto »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:02 am was he in meditation or he was just not directing attention to any thing but outside meditation?
āsava is required for sense-consciousness to arise, but if mind is purified(held pure) then the consciousness doesn't arise. It means the impression what the sound leaves onto the ear is not passed on to examination if it is good or not and thus one is unable to assume if it is sound or not, and one needs specifically agree with the world, yes that is sound.

Technically sound is still heard,
https://suttacentral.net/an4.195/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: “A mendicant whose mind is rightly freed like this has achieved six consistent responses.
“Evaṁ sammā vimuttacittassa kho, vappa, bhikkhuno cha satatavihārā adhigatā honti.
Seeing a sight with the eye, they’re neither happy nor sad, but remain equanimous, mindful and aware.
So cakkhunā rūpaṁ disvā neva sumano hoti na dummano; upekkhako viharati sato sampajāno.
Sound is old kamma
https://suttacentral.net/an3.39/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: But since I, too, am liable to grow old, it would not be appropriate for me to be horrified, embarrassed, and disgusted, when I see someone else who is old.’
Ahañceva kho pana jarādhammo samāno jaraṁ anatīto paraṁ jiṇṇaṁ disvā aṭṭīyeyyaṁ harāyeyyaṁ jiguccheyyaṁ na metaṁ assa patirūpan’ti.
Reflecting like this, I entirely gave up the vanity of youth.
Tassa mayhaṁ, bhikkhave, iti paṭisañcikkhato yo yobbane yobbanamado so sabbaso pahīyi.
so is the ear subject to old age,
https://suttacentral.net/an3.39/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: If I were to be disgusted
Ahañce taṁ jiguccheyyaṁ,
with creatures whose nature is such,
evaṁdhammesu pāṇisu;
it would not be appropriate for me,
Na metaṁ patirūpassa,
since my life is just the same.
mama evaṁ vihārino.
reality without attachments, attachments are the *upadhi(children, cows..)
https://suttacentral.net/an3.39/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:Living in such a way,
Sohaṁ evaṁ viharanto,
I understood the reality without attachments.
ñatvā dhammaṁ nirūpadhiṁ;
*upadhi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upadhi wrote:Upaadhi (Sanskrit: उपाधि) is a term in Hindu philosophy meaning "imposition" or "limitation". In Hindu logic, an upadhi is the condition which accompanies the major term and must be supplied to limit the too general middle term.[1] For instance, "the mountain has smoke because it has fire" rests on the false premise that all fire is accompanied by smoke. To restrict the too general middle term here, 'wet fuel' should be added as the condition of fire.

It can also be viewed as a disguise or vehicle for true reality, both defining something and limiting it. For example, the body of a man or animal is the upadhi of its spirit. Upadhi is one of many conditions of body and mind obscuring the true state of man or his self which Indian philosophies seek to remove for the attainment of moksha.
unable to indulge in sensual pleasures,
https://suttacentral.net/an3.39/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: seeing safety in renunciation.
Nekkhamme daṭṭhu khemataṁ;
Variant: Nekkhamme daṭṭhu khemataṁ → nekkhammaṁ daṭṭhu khemato (si, sya-all, pts1ed)
Zeal sprang up in me
Tassa me ahu ussāho,
as I looked to extinguishment.
Nibbānaṁ abhipassato.

Now I’m unable
Nāhaṁ bhabbo etarahi,
to indulge in sensual pleasures;
Kāmāni paṭisevituṁ;
User avatar
frank k
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by frank k »

U might not be such a confused layman if you studied the suttas more carefully.
I've even done all the hard work of collecting all the sutta passages that shed light on hearing in jhana.
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/sound/index.html
look at the pali for these two passages especially:
DN 21 Buddha hears carriage moving and is knocked out of ‘samadhi’
KN Ud 3.3 500 monks and buddha in imperturbable samadhi can’t hear

In KN Ud in imperturbable samadhi, was when they couldn't hear loud sounds.
In normal 'samadhi' (not explicitly stated as 4 jhanas, but we can safely assume it's not the 'imperturbablbe samadhi of DN 16 and DN 21), the Buddha had arahants can hear sound. Otherwise Ananda would not approach him, talk to him, and expect him to hear and respond while the Buddha was meditating.
By examining all the sutta passages in the article, and connecting the dots, you should be able to draw the right conclusion and come out of your confusion.

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:40 am u cant hear sound in jhana, if u hear then jhana is not purified and u need to reenter again
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
User avatar
samseva
Posts: 3045
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by samseva »

frank k wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:27 pm DN 21 Buddha hears carriage moving and is knocked out of ‘samadhi’
You can't hear sound while in jhāna, but loud noise can take one out of jhāna. Exactly as you describe.
frank k wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:27 pm In KN Ud in imperturbable samadhi, was when they couldn't hear loud sounds.
In normal 'samadhi' (not explicitly stated as 4 jhanas, but we can safely assume it's not the 'imperturbablbe samadhi of DN 16 and DN 21)
So you equate "samādhi" as being jhāna? That may be the issue.
frank k wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:27 pm I've even done all the hard work of collecting all the sutta passages that shed light on hearing in jhana.
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/sound/index.html
There are 284 instances of "jhān" in your list of Sutta passages and descriptions. Apart from the text you wrote, in the Pāḷi quotes, there is only two cases where "jhān" is mentioned:

- In SN 46.52, of which what is described is the bojjhanga of concentration.
- All the other instances describing jhāna are about how sound is a thorn to jhāna.

So your list doesn't say anything at all about hearing sound in jhāna.
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8151
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Coëmgenu »

Are there sonic samādhis with functioning ear-consciousnesses in Theravāda?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by confusedlayman »

samseva wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:10 pm
frank k wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:27 pm DN 21 Buddha hears carriage moving and is knocked out of ‘samadhi’
You can't hear sound while in jhāna, but loud noise can take one out of jhāna. Exactly as you describe.
frank k wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:27 pm In KN Ud in imperturbable samadhi, was when they couldn't hear loud sounds.
In normal 'samadhi' (not explicitly stated as 4 jhanas, but we can safely assume it's not the 'imperturbablbe samadhi of DN 16 and DN 21)
So you equate "samādhi" as being jhāna? That may be the issue.
frank k wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:27 pm I've even done all the hard work of collecting all the sutta passages that shed light on hearing in jhana.
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/sound/index.html
There are 284 instances of "jhān" in your list of Sutta passages and descriptions. Apart from the text you wrote, in the Pāḷi quotes, there is only two cases where "jhān" is mentioned:

- In SN 46.52, of which what is described is the bojjhanga of concentration.
- All the other instances describing jhāna are about how sound is a thorn to jhāna.

So your list doesn't say anything at all about hearing sound in jhāna.
how can loud noise make one come out of samadhi? in samadhi or jhana the 5 sense are completely cutoff so sound consciousness cant arise
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
samseva
Posts: 3045
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by samseva »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:47 am how can loud noise make one come out of samadhi? in samadhi or jhana the 5 sense are completely cutoff so sound consciousness cant arise
You can't hear in jhāna, but loud noise can surprise you and take you out of jhāna. If someone kicks you while in jhāna, you'll come out of jhāna.
BrokenBones
Posts: 1784
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:20 am

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by BrokenBones »

samseva wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:54 am
confusedlayman wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:47 am how can loud noise make one come out of samadhi? in samadhi or jhana the 5 sense are completely cutoff so sound consciousness cant arise
You can't hear in jhāna, but loud noise can surprise you and take you out of jhāna. If someone kicks you while in jhāna, you'll come out of jhāna.
So you can't hear... but a loud noise will surprise you... makes perfect sense :rolleye:

I suggest that in first jhana you're 'disengaged' from hearing and any sounds that do come within range do not disturb the meditation... but a loud noise may or may not break the meditation.

If someone kicks you whilst in jhana I suggest you find a different monastery.
User avatar
samseva
Posts: 3045
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by samseva »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:35 amSo you can't hear... but a loud noise will surprise you... makes perfect sense :rolleye:
It's not difficult to understand. Why do you think the Suttas say sound is a thorn to jhāna?

Same as with physical touch. You don't feel wind or your body while in jhāna, but a tornado that throws you ten feet in the air, and then on the ground, will take you out of jhāna.
BrokenBones
Posts: 1784
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:20 am

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by BrokenBones »

samseva wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:42 am
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:35 amSo you can't hear... but a loud noise will surprise you... makes perfect sense :rolleye:
It's not difficult to understand. Why do you think the Suttas say sound is a thorn to jhāna?

Same as with physical touch. You don't feel wind or your body while in jhāna, but a tornado that throws you ten feet in the air, and then on the ground, will take you out of jhāna.
Sound is a thorn to first jhana because a loud or sudden noise 'CAN' knock you out of jhana. Most other noises will not knock you out of jhana... the noises are heard but they do not impinge on the jhana... you have no interest/desire for them... you are secluded from sensual desires/interest... you haven't cut your ears off.

Only with cessation will the senses shut down.
User avatar
samseva
Posts: 3045
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by samseva »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:17 am you have no interest/desire for them...
Do you have a Sutta that describes you can hear sound in jhāna, but you "have no interest/desire" in them (both of those things)? There is no such thing.

No sound in jhāna. If you're hearing two people having a joyful chat next to you, that's not jhāna. Jhāna is a deep meditative absorption where there is no perception of sound and the body.

If you want to think you're doing jhāna while hearing cars pass by, or things like that, feel free to do so.
Post Reply