Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:25 pm Well, I'm fine with being flexible with language. I'll stop referring to it as "lite" if you consider it intolerably bigoted. I tolerate it being called lite, fake, various other things, because those words don't change what I consider to be the truth of the matter. I am used to people constantly incompetently dumping on Mahāyāna. Perhaps I'm just desensitized.
Absorbed vs non-absorbed might be better.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:25 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:08 pm So, in Theravāda, the deities of the form heavens are constantly single-pointedly focused on nimittas?
Not just Theravāda, since this passage has parallels. There might be disagreement if it is nimittas that they are focused upon though.
It makes an issue of why beings in the heaven of the second jhāna are not similarly absorbed.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:26 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:25 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:08 pm So, in Theravāda, the deities of the form heavens are constantly single-pointedly focused on nimittas?
Not just Theravāda, since this passage has parallels. There might be disagreement if it is nimittas that they are focused upon though.
It makes an issue of why beings in the heaven of the second jhāna are not similarly absorbed.
I've always understood it to be referencing piti and sukha.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Coëmgenu »

Also, Mahābrahmā lives in the heaven of the first jhāna. He is not depicted as only having one object of cognition. Does he not reside there in Theravāda?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:28 pm Also, Mahābrahmā lives in the heaven of the first jhāna. He is not depicted as only having one object of cognition. Does he not reside there in Theravāda?
He does, but when any of the deities from the corresponding Jhānic planes come down to our level they have to take on a grosser form. That seems to be suggesting that they leave their Jhāna for a time and return to the world of the 5 senses.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by frank k »

From what I recall, the brahmas reborn in the first jhana rupa realm
have rupa 4 element materlal bodies, can see, can hear sounds, but do not smell, taste.
They don't eat, they do jhana to energize themselves.

I don't think that's from sutta reference, from commentary I think.

In the suttas, you have Brahma appearing in material 4 element rupa body to talk to the Buddha and various disciples.

SilaSamadhi8 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:44 pm Greetings Dhamma Friends,

Pardon me for barging into the discussion like this but I thought of something these past few days.
I don't know fully know Pali or have not read the entirety of Canon but from what I've read in the Suttas about the Cosmology of the universe as it was expounded by the Lord Buddha, I believe the Commentaries, Abhiddhama and Visudhimagga are correct about Jhanas, among other reasons, for the following:


One who attains the first Rupa-Jhana is reborn in the first level of the Brahma/Rupa worlds. The Brahmas do not enjoy the sense pleasures (not even fine ones like the devas) because they don't have senses, they are made of pure light/bliss (Rupa or fine material body) and enjoy themselves.
Therefore, it would be illogical to say that one perceive senses in the First Rupa-Jhana because that would be contradictory to the nature of the attainment and where one goes after death.


Hope this was insightful, if not then someone who is more knowledgeable can correct me if I'm wrong.


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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Coëmgenu »

How then did Brahmā Sahampati, a higher Brahmā than the one prefixed with "Mahā," perceive the Buddha in order to then take on a grosser/coarser form in order to perceive and interact with the Tathāgata and entreat him to teach?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:32 pm How then did Brahmā Sahampati, a higher Brahmā than the one prefixed with "Mahā," perceive the Buddha in order to then take on a grosser/coarser form in order to perceive and interact with the Tathāgata and entreat him to teach?
I don't think that actually happened myself.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Coëmgenu »

Regardless, how is it supposed to have happened if the only objects of cognition for his class of deva were their own pīti and sukkha?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:37 pm Regardless, how is it supposed to have happened if the only objects of cognition for his class of deva were their own pīti and sukkha?
I have asked myself and was never given any kind of satisfactory reply, not that that has anything to do with why I don't accept the narrative. I think a large part of the cosmology is constructed to match meditation with some destination after death in order to bring them in line with the Buddha's teachings regarding rebirth. Being somewhat artificial there are then going to be anomalies. For example, the Asaññasatta deities. If that realm is completely without perception no one would ever know about it, unless they had the mind of God. I don't think the passage I quoted is from the Buddha either by the way. I think this is the ancient sangha doing the same, matching meditation to states after death to construct a cosmology. What is more interesting is in how they define the attainments, rather than the destinations IMO.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by nirodh27 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:40 pm What exactly is the Jhāna-lite understanding of the what Ajahn Brahm etc etc propose? What exactly are we doing, or trying to do, according to the Jhāna-lite worldview? Frank and BrokenBones think it is simply some weird meditative state, something which is Wrong Concentration. Is that shared by others here? It would have some interesting repercussions if true, for it would mean that Theravāda isn't capable of leading to awakening at all and so no Arahants have ever existed within that school. I don't think it is true, partly because I don't think Wrong Concentration is based on what you are experiencing, but I'm interested in what others have to say here.
Theravada can of course have Arahants since the Jhanas (which I would not call weird, those are very well defined things with a clear goal) of A. Brahm can accomplish the goal of MN14 to sustain you in the holy life with a pleasure superior sukha of the sensual desires. This opens the possibility of total dispassion about sensual pleasures which in turns can open you the work to fully abandon the "conceit I Am" which is not possible if you are still involved in the world to get pleasure from that.

But the work of dispassion is done while the meditator is out of Jhana because of the nature of the practice of deep absorption. I don't think is as much as effective as the second reading, but nothing is precluded at all if the meditator doesn't simply accomodate himself in that absorption pleasure and avoids the Vipassana work (which is why attachment to Jhanas pleasure seems a problem for many in Theravada, while actually Jhanas cannot be a problem for the Buddha in any ways, they are defined as a pleasure that must not be feared and blameless). The Theravada have many masters that warns you about Jhanas, this is very odd, but I think it is correct to be alert about that because of the nature of such a practice. This is also the opinion expressed on the Recent book "what you might not know about Jhana and Samadhi" by Bhikku Kemara which is a truly suggested reading for those who are interested in Jhana and Samadhi.

In my view, that shares a lot with Frankk but I don't know very well how much, you instead first do the work of MN19/MN20 and the agama parallel MA102 which is to use vitakka and vicara (using discursive thought and analysis) about the drawbacks of sensual pleasure/aversion/ignorance and after that to intentionally think thoughts of renunciation. MA102 skips the first Jhana formula to go directly to the second Jhana and his order and similes seems way more logic.

When you are able to fulfill the 2 higher ways in MN20 to remove unskillful thoughs the mind remains in a state in which only thoughts of renunciation non aversion and non cruelty stems in the mind and no hindrances is present. This is where first Jhana starts. This is one of the biggest u-turn of the Dhamma and of the Buddha's strive for liberation, the mind totally changes his source of food from delight in sensuality to delight in renunciation and separation which is a delight that is more reliable, more stable, more constant, better than the pleasure of a king (MN14).

The clear water simile used in the Agamas for the first meditation is so beautiful because the pleasure of entering clear waters (of only skillful thoughts) is both bodily and mental, a cohesive experience. This is first Jhana entrance which gives you the pleasure of seclusion, peace and separation as defined in MN66. Also the simile of the Agamas (MA2) in which the tree starts to get new leaves is very good, the leaves are the renunciation thoughts and the mind is the tree. The old leaves are the unskillful thoughts of the lay life and... the lay life itself.

So if we follow MA102, but the work is the same in MN19, we have:

Access-renunciation :tongue: :

--- The work on the drawbacks and the abandonment which is the done with the tactics of MN20:
Practicing like this, I went and stayed in a remote and secluded place, practicing diligently with a mind free of negligence. [If] a thought of sensual desire arose, I at once realized “A thought of sensual desire has arisen, which is harmful to myself, harmful to others, harmful to both, which will
destroy wisdom, cause much trouble, and not [lead to] attaining nirvana.” On realizing that it was harmful to myself, harmful to others, harmful to
both, would destroy wisdom, cause much trouble, and not [lead to] attaining nirvana, it rapidly ceased.

In the same way, [if ] a thought of sensual desire arose in me, I did not accept it but abandoned it, discarded it, and vomited it out.
--- The work of keeping the kusala and the thoughts of renunciation:
On realizing that it was not harmful to myself, not harmful to others, not harmful to both, that it would [lead to] developing wisdom without difficulty and to attaining nirvana, I rapidly developed it and made much of it. Intentionally cultivate thoughts without sensual desire: [If] a thought without sensual desire arose in me, I intentionally kept on thinking it. [If] a thought without ill-will, . . . [or] a thought without cruelty arose, I intentionally kept on thinking it.
Until here, we have Sati (actually the Buddha didn't have sati of the Dhamma like us fortunate beings, he invented/discovered the Dhamma by himself) > Dhamma Vicaya and Energy. The Buddha then decide to stop the intentional thinking, because it is no more necessary.

--- but this strains your mind:
I further had this thought: “If I intentionally keep on thinking my body will lose strength and my mind will be troubled. Let me rather keep my mind in check within, continuously dwelling in inner tranquility, unified, having attained concentration, so that my mind will not be troubled.”
--- So you enter in first Jhana when you're able to let the mind produce thoughts that are wholesome by itself, without having to put strong intentionality and energy. The Buddha still allows thoughts to arise, but there's no need of intentionally doing it straining his mind.
Thereafter I kept my mind in check within, continuously dwelling in inner tranquility, unified, having attained concentration, and my mind was
no longer troubled. [If] a thought without sensual desire arose in me, I further [allowed] thoughts to arise that were inclined toward the Dharma and in accordance with the Dharma. [If] a thought without ill-will, . . . [or] a thought without cruelty arose, I further [allowed] thoughts to arise that were inclined toward the Dharma and in accordance with the Dharma. Why was that? [Because] I did not see that countless evil and unwholesome states would arise because of [such thoughts].
It is just as in the last month of autumn, when the entire harvest has been collected, a cowherd boy sets the cows free in the uncultivated fields
and is mindful of them, thinking, “My cows are there in the herd.” Why is that? Because the cowherd boy does not see that he would be scolded,
beaten, or imprisoned for any trespassing. For this reason he is mindful of them thus, “My cows are there in the herd.”
In the same way, [if] a thought without sensual desire arose in me, I further [allowed] thoughts to arise that were inclined to the Dharma and
in accordance with the Dharma. [If] a thought without ill-will, . . . [or] a thought without cruelty arose, I further [allowed] thoughts to arise that
This is the first Jhana in action. Here you have joy and serenity. The cows are free to roam in the mind since the u-turn on your values allows you to be sure that the thoughts that will arise will be wholesome. Just like the mind of a worldling, he can be sure that the thoughts will be about sensual pleasure without using any effort. This, of course, cannot be called "light-jhana" since even if the absorpion cannot be deep in first jhana, the renunciation, separation and realization of the Dhamma have to be very very deep (and the more renunciation, the more strong the jhana pleasure is) to have a mind that it is naturally inclined to produce thoughts of renunciation, nonaversion and noncruelty and thoughts of Dhamma.

The Buddha also reminds his audience that:
Monks, in accordance with what one intends, in accordance with what one thinks, the mind takes delight in that. If a monk often thinks thoughts
without sensual desire and abandons thoughts of sensual desire, then because of often thinking thoughts without sensual desire his mind takes
delight in them. If a monk often thinks thoughts without ill-will, . . . [or] thoughts without cruelty, and abandons thoughts of ill-will, . . . [or] thoughts of cruelty, then because of often thinking thoughts without ill-will, . . . [or] thoughts without cruelty his mind takes delight in them.
which is the trick that allows the path to progress.

When you are ready and you're sure that the work of dispassion is properly done you can collect yourself in second Jhana which has now the pleasure of concentration/collectedness as the main source and there's no discursive thought since you abandon it because you simply mantain the intentions of renunciation without thinking, more so, thinking became the thorn of your second jhana, since the habit of thinking can make some wholesome thoughts to pop-up in the mind and that is not optimal since with second Jhana we want to be in a form of collectedness that makes the mind rest in composure and renunciation. The sankhara of thought, vitakka and vicara must be ceased as in MN78 (which with the translation of Sujato seems a very strange sutta) to get a true second jhana. A well-developed second Jhana could be very well be devoid of sound since it will be a state of strong collectedness and it is the actual Jhana in which the pleasure is described as born mainly from samadhi, while the first Jhana is a pleasure born of separation and Dhamma.
*With the calming of (Vitakka&vicara) [directed] awareness and [sustained] contemplation, with inner stillness and mental unification, he dwells having attained the second absorption, which is without (Vitakka & Vicara) [directed] awareness and [sustained] contemplation and with rapture and happiness born of concentration
(*Analayo suggests to put right before this the first jhana formula, but this makes no sense. For MA102 you are already in a state of concentration, you have already abandoned unskillful thoughts, there are still thoughts, but those thoughts are of renunciation, the cows are free to roam because you are sure that they will not flee and there's no intention needed to do so. If you want to add the first jhana formula, you have to do it when the Buddha passes from a meditation with trouble with a meditation without trouble and effort. again: There's the first part that is actively thinking those thoughts, you make effort to do it and the second in which the mind stems the thought but not much is done apart from allowing the thought).

So MN78 is fulfilled:

MN78:
And what are skillful thoughts? Thoughts of renunciation, good will, and harmlessness. These are called skillful thoughts.

And where do these skillful thoughts stem from? Where they stem from has been stated. You should say that they stem from perception. What perception? Perception takes many and diverse forms. Perceptions of renunciation, good will, and harmlessness—skillful thoughts stem from this.

And where do these skillful thoughts cease without anything left over? Their cessation has also been stated. It’s when, as the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, a mendicant enters and remains in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without (vitakka&vicara) placing the mind and keeping it connected. This is where these skillful thoughts cease without anything left over.
This reading resolves also:

- The noble silence is actually indicated as the second Jhana which is ok because it is the abandoning of discursive thought.
- The link between MN19 and MN20 is very clear.
- Access concentration is not needed and it is understood why the Buddha didn't teach it, because is already present in the canon a preliminary practice for entering the first Jhana that is the meditation on the drawbacks and intentional generation of renunciation thoughts. When you are in first Jhana, the thoughts arise without effort, no more (or very little) intention is needed. When you're ready, you can collect yourself in the Dhamma abandoning the thoughts altogheter, pacifing those sankharas, for even more pacification and happiness.

This is a reading that needs to be worked on a little and it is too long I know, but I've decided to post it anyway.
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by samseva »

nirodh27 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:43 pm [...]
I want my 5-10 minutes back. What was the point you were trying to make in that wall-of-text post?
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by nirodh27 »

samseva wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:53 pm
nirodh27 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:43 pm [...]
I want my 5-10 minutes back. What was the point you were trying to make in that wall-of-text post?
For example of a Frank opinion since I've taken a lot from him or a Ceiswir harsh critique.

Btw rejoice, I will give you more than 10 minutes back. Never read me again and you will surely make up for the lost time :bow: :namaste:

And please, don't quote me because I don't want to use friends and foes and at the same time I don't want to get a "samseva" notification in my email since I think no fruitful exchange is possible and I'm not interested.

Of course you're free to critique anything I write, but please don't get me quoted with the name because I'm not interested in those kinds of very unfruitful exchanges.

Thank you very much. Don't quote me. Thanks.
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Ceisiwr »

Interestingly there is also a parallel in the Ekottara Āgama. This would suggest Jhāna was seen as an absorbed state from the 2nd council onwards at least, so roughly 100 years after the Buddha died (and so informed by 1st or 2nd generation disciples). Of course I'm relying upon DeepL here
聞如是:

一時,佛在舍衛國祇樹給孤獨 園。

爾時,世尊告諸比丘:「我今當說七神止 處,汝等諦聽!善思念之。」

諸比丘對曰:「如 是。世尊!」

是時,世尊告諸比丘:「彼云何名為 七神識住處?所謂眾生若干種身想,所謂人 及天也。又復眾生若干種身而有一想,所 謂梵迦夷天也,初出現世;又復眾生一身 若干想,所謂光音天也;又復眾生一身一 想,所謂遍淨天也;又復眾生無量空,空處 天也;又復眾生無量識,識處天也;又復眾生 無有處,無有處天也。是謂,比丘!七識住處,我 今已說七識處,諸佛世尊所可施行接度 人民,今日已辦。當在閑居樹下,善修其行, 勿有懈怠。此是我之教誨。」

爾時,諸比丘聞 佛所說,歡喜奉行。

I heard the following.

At that time, the Buddha was in the Garden of Solitude at the Gion Tree in the Kingdom of Shiva.

Then the World Honored One said to the bhikkhus, "I am going to talk about the seven divine places of rest. Think about them well."

The bhikkhus said to him, "Yes. The bhikkhus said, "Yes, Your Holiness!

At that time, the World Honored One told the bhikkhus, "What are they called the seven dwelling places of the divine consciousness? It is the thought of several kinds of bodies of living beings, called human beings and heavenly beings. And then there are beings who have one thought in several bodies, the so-called Brahmacharya Heaven, the first appearance of the world; and then there are beings who have several thoughts in one body, the so-called Light and Sound Heaven; and then there are beings who have one thought in one body, the so-called Universal Pure Heaven; and then there are beings who have infinite emptiness, the Sky of Emptiness; and then there are beings who have infinite knowledge, the Sky of Knowledge; and then there are beings who have no place, the Sky of No Place. I say, bhikkhus! I have spoken of the seven realms of dwelling, and I have spoken of the seven realms of dwelling, which the Buddhas and the World Honored Ones can perform to receive the people, and have done so today. Do not slacken in your practice under the trees of your leisurely abode. These are my teachings."

Then the bhikkhus heard the Buddha's words and joyfully followed them.
https://suttacentral.net/ea39.5/lzh/taisho

Perhaps the Pubbaseliyās were an anomaly when it came to the Jhānas, with the rest of the Mahāsāṃghika agreeing with the Sthaviras?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by samseva »

nirodh27 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:01 pm And please, don't quote me because I don't want to use friends and foes and at the same time I don't want to get a "samseva" notification in my email since I think no fruitful exchange is possible and I'm not interested.

Of course you're free to critique anything I write, but please don't get me quoted because I'm not interested in those kinds of very unfruitful exchanges.

Thank you very much. Don't quote me. Thanks.
I am not going to take extra time to remove metadata, so that you personally don't get a notification.

If you can't deal with people refuting your posts, then maybe you should re-consider posting such things as the wall-of-text above—which is mostly based on personal opinion, and partly made up.
Last edited by samseva on Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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