Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

[BrokenBones]

you have no interest/desire for them...

Do you have a Sutta that describes you can hear sound in jhāna, but you "have no interest/desire" in them (both of those things)? There is no such thing.

No sound in jhāna. If you're hearing two people having a joyful chat next to you, that's not jhāna. Jhāna is a deep meditative absorption where there is no perception of sound and the body.

If you want to think you're doing jhāna while hearing cars pass by, or things like that, feel free to do so.

There is no sutta where it says you can't hear sound in first jhana or any of the four jhanas... it's just that sound fades further and further into the background as seclusion & samadhi deepen.

'Secluded from sensual desires' is oft repeated... sounds arise but don't impinge because there's no desire.

Jhana is a meditative state where there is perception of the body and 'non attention' /'disinterest' in sound.

There's even a sutta where jhana is done whilst walking... pretty hard to do without a body.

This is just rehashing all the previous threads and you have your opinions and I have mine. I'm happy with my understanding and how the suttas (especially the jhana similes) affirm that understanding.

[samseva]

There is no sutta where it says you can't hear sound in first jhana or any of the four jhanas... it's just that sound fades further and further into the background as seclusion & samadhi deepen.

sounds arise but don't impinge because there's no desire.

Jhana is a meditative state where there is perception of the body and 'non attention' /'disinterest' in sound.

This is just rehashing all the previous threads and you have your opinions and I have mine. I'm happy with my understanding and how the suttas (especially the jhana similes) affirm that understanding.

All the above is just your personal opinions, and mostly false.

'Secluded from sensual desires' is oft repeated...

Exactly.

There's even a sutta where jhana is done whilst walking... pretty hard to do without a body.

Since you don't read Pāḷi, it's not surprising you think that is possible. You can't walk while in jhāna.

[nirodh27]

It seems it all boils down if one interprets the thorn as an ongoing annoyance that fluctuates or an event that with a certain strenght knocks you off.

In italian we have the motto "essere una spina nel fianco" with I think in english is "being a thorn in our side"

someone or something that continually causes problems for you: Money problems have been a thorn in our side since the day we got married. Health inspectors are a thorn in the side of most restaurants.

In this case the marriage or the restaurant is open, but there's an annoyance sometimes that disturbs. Likewise since first Jhana for Frankk is a process of thinking thoughts of renunciation after the abandonment of the hindrances thanks to the meditation on the drawbacks, you can practice the first jhana with some annoyance. It is not hard to imagine. In the second Jhana instead the Thorn will be thoughts itself, since you abandon that and sometimes the habitual and ingrained urge to think will disturb your second jhana. Again, in this interpretation a little thought will not knock you out, you will need to re-make the same intention of noble silence that bringed you from the first jhana to the second.

For others, those of the full absorbtion mindset, the thorn (the pin) functions like hitting a baloon. If it is hit too hard, the baloon explodes and you're knocked out. Given the strong single-pointedness, it is not hard to imagine too.

So the definitive solution of this issue will will reveal itself when we will decide which of the two is the correct interpretation of the jhanas.

[samseva]

So the definitive solution of this issue will will reveal itself when we will decide which of the two is the correct interpretation of the jhanas.

The definitive solution will be when frank and BrokenBones will have experienced jhāna.

[frank k]

Are there sonic samādhis with functioning ear-consciousnesses in Theravāda?

are you asking me, or asking rhetorically to get others to see the answer for themselves?
This sutta, MN 125 (my translation has clarifying notes relevant to OP)
https://lucid24.org/mn/mn125/index.html

The simile of the elephant makes this clear, especially when you break it down and see what stage matches which action of the elephant. The simile doesn't say, "then the trainer cuts off the elephants ear and gouges out his eyes so he can't see or hear."


And the fact that 1st jhana is omitted intentionally in this sutta (at 4 jhana formula),
makes it unequivocal that 1st jhana is the same as the satipatthana stage where it describes (instead of 1st jhana).

Does one think you can't hear in satipatthana either? That one has one's ear cut off in satipatthana?

And what about the 3rd jhana with satipatthana built in to the formula? There's a special satipatthana where one's ears are cut off (following the vism. assumption that in jhana you can't hear).

edit: addition
Also, in the same MN 125 link I have a link to the MA parallel. So the sarvasitvada version agrees with MN 125, on imperturbability and withstanding impact of hearing in the 4 jahnas, as far as I can tell (based on agama sutta. I don't know about their Abhidharma).

[nirodh27]

So the definitive solution of this issue will will reveal itself when we will decide which of the two is the correct interpretation of the jhanas.

The definitive solution will be when frank and BrokenBones will have experienced jhāna.

Maybe after they will prove absorption they will still prefer the other option that deals with thoughts of renunciation because they will feel it is more fruiful for the goal of dispassion.

Sometimes minor issues can help to unravel the big ones, but this does not seem the case at all.

[Coëmgenu]

Are there sonic samādhis with functioning ear-consciousnesses in Theravāda?

are you asking me, or asking rhetorically to get others to see the answer for themselves?

I could have been clearer. I was asking Samseva if Theravāda had "sonic samādhis" because they drew a differentiation between samādhi and dhyāna. I know these to be virtually identical terms, the only difference being that samādhi includes the non-dhyānic lead up to dhyāna. Similarly, "samādhi" includes the samāpattis, which "dhyāna" does not necessarily include as a term. That being said, I doubt that Samseva meant "samādhi" in the sense of the lead-up to a stabilized and authentic dhyāna. I have a suspicion that they meant some undisclosed "other kind of absorption" that maybe isn't so absorbed? I don't want to guess. They can clarify for themselves. I'll tag:

I was wondering if Samseva knew of such samādhis wherein there was the hearing of sound, according to the understanding of the Theravāda sect.

[samseva]

That being said, I doubt that Samseva meant "samādhi" in the sense of the lead-up to a stabilized and authentic dhyāna. I have a suspicion that they meant some undisclosed "other kind of absorption" that maybe isn't so absorbed? I don't want to guess. They can clarify for themselves. I'll tag:

I was wondering if Samseva knew of such samādhis wherein there was the hearing of sound, according to the understanding of the Theravāda sect.

I was just saying that frank's long list of supposed Suttas saying there is sound in jhāna contained only one Sutta which has jhāna in the Pāḷi, having to do with the bojjhanga of concentration, and the few others talk about how sound is a thorn to jhāna—so his list doesn't really say anything at all.

[confusedlayman]

Sound is thron because u cant enter 1st jhana as long as sound is disturbing but after u enter sound is irrelavent...

Loud noise cant ko from jhana as body is also immovable as voluntary muscles are temporaryly paralysed

[waryoffolly]

I was wondering if Samseva knew of such samādhis wherein there was the hearing of sound, according to the understanding of the Theravāda sect.

Presumably one could hear in the state of samadhi described in AN 4.12 since we have samadhi in all four postures. https://suttacentral.net/an4.12/en/suja ... ript=latin

The relevant quote (repeated for all postures):

Suppose a mendicant has got rid of desire and ill will while walking, and has given up dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and remorse, and doubt. Their energy is roused up and unflagging, their mindfulness is established and lucid, their body is tranquil and undisturbed, and their mind is immersed in samādhi. Such a mendicant is said to be ‘keen and prudent, always energetic and determined’ when walking.

Carato cepi, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno abhijjhābyāpādo vigato hoti, thinamiddhaṁ … uddhaccakukkuccaṁ … vicikicchā pahīnā hoti, āraddhaṁ hoti vīriyaṁ asallīnaṁ, upaṭṭhitā sati asammuṭṭhā, passaddho kāyo asāraddho, samāhitaṁ cittaṁ ekaggaṁ, carampi, bhikkhave, bhikkhu evaṁbhūto ‘ātāpī ottāpī satataṁ samitaṁ āraddhavīriyo pahitatto’ti vuccati.

[Coëmgenu]

Isn't it interesting how these texts rarely use the words we want them to use? The state is never specified as a samādhi in the sutta. Those pesky suttas.

It may well be a non-dhyānic samādhi.

[waryoffolly]

Isn't it interesting how these texts rarely use the words we want them to use? The state is never specified as a samādhi in the sutta. Those pesky suttas.

It may well be a non-dhyānic samādhi.

Samahitam cittam ekaggam with no hindrances seems a pretty clearcut case of samadhi. Suttas frequently discuss the same topic using a different vocabulary IMO (although here the vocabulary is nearly synonymous with that used to discuss samadhi). To determine if the same topic is being discussed we have to look at the context. This passage here occurs as a description of the next step after developing strong sila, and the abandonment of the hindrances. Given the standard accounts of the gradual training, progression of the bojjhanga, transcendental DA, etc, in the suttas we can pretty safely claim this state as a type of samadhi given it's location in the developmental progression.

[waryoffolly]

Are there sonic samādhis with functioning ear-consciousnesses in Theravāda?

Here's a more explicit passage: https://suttacentral.net/sn46.38/en/bodhi .

No hindrances + seven factors of awakening go to fulfillment by development while explicitly listening to dhamma. The seven factors include samadhi, so this is an experience of samadhi with hearing. Presumably it's samma samadhi since it's focused on the dhamma, but of course some with the disembodied view of jhana will disagree since they may also equate samma samadhi with jhana.

It also has a parallel (https://suttacentral.net/sa709/lzh/tais ... ript=latin), but there isn't an available translation and DeepL is problematic for translating ancient chinese.

[frank k]

Did anyone read what I wrote here?
First jhana is equated with 4 satipatthana (developed beyond removing hindrances to include removing thoughts releated to sensualtiy) in MN 125.
Can you hear sounds in satipatthana?
Then you can hear sounds in first jhana.
Surely no one can contest this?
We all can agree hearing works in satipatthana right?

Are there sonic samādhis with functioning ear-consciousnesses in Theravāda?

are you asking me, or asking rhetorically to get others to see the answer for themselves?
This sutta, MN 125 (my translation has clarifying notes relevant to OP)
https://lucid24.org/mn/mn125/index.html

The simile of the elephant makes this clear, especially when you break it down and see what stage matches which action of the elephant. The simile doesn't say, "then the trainer cuts off the elephants ear and gouges out his eyes so he can't see or hear."


And the fact that 1st jhana is omitted intentionally in this sutta (at 4 jhana formula),
makes it unequivocal that 1st jhana is the same as the satipatthana stage where it describes (instead of 1st jhana).

Does one think you can't hear in satipatthana either? That one has one's ear cut off in satipatthana?

And what about the 3rd jhana with satipatthana built in to the formula? There's a special satipatthana where one's ears are cut off (following the vism. assumption that in jhana you can't hear).

edit: addition
Also, in the same MN 125 link I have a link to the MA parallel. So the sarvasitvada version agrees with MN 125, on imperturbability and withstanding impact of hearing in the 4 jahnas, as far as I can tell (based on agama sutta. I don't know about their Abhidharma).

[frank k]

...
In italian we have the motto "essere una spina nel fianco" with I think in english is "being a thorn in our side"
...

Same thing in English, works the same way.
And it still acts like the thorn in that whenever it comes to mind, you get a mental and physical pain that follows.

What no one seems to have picked up on, which I've written in detail on the analysis of the thorns sutta AN 10.72 here
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/sound/index.html

is that
1. sound is a thorn for all 4 jhanas, not just the 1st. The other thorns such as vitakka vicara for second jhana are just additional thorns. There can be more than one kind of thorn. Just because the sutta doesn't say you can't smell farts in the 4 jhanas doesn't mean you can not. It's reasonable to conclude if you can hear sounds, you can feel mosquito bites and smell farts.
2. 4 formless attainments are omitted, because you can't feel a thorn in imperturbable samadhi
3. THE PROCESS OF ATTAINING (samāpattiyā) cessation of pecerption of feeling is listed as the last meditative thorn. Where the 4 jhanas are listed, it doesn't use the term (samāpattiyā). Otherwise, it could have listed 4 jhanas and 4 formless attainments, because obviouslly sound would be a thorn in the process of trying to attain any samadhi.
Let me repeat that in another way. The thorns for the 4 jhanas are felt and experiened while you're in those 4 jhanas. The 'sampattiya' term (or lack thereof) make that clear. And the suttas such as AN 9.41 where the thorns are happening during the attainment (such as vitakka interrupting second jhana) make it clear that THORNS ARE HAPPENING WHILE YOU'RE CONSCIOUS OF AND IN THAT JHANA.