Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Coëmgenu »

It would possibly make you a sort of pseudo-Mahayanist in denial. I don't think you have a desire to discard your last body and discard your mind with it. As such, I don't think that you have "an Arhat ideal." Instead, you seem to have a "realize the unconditioned eternal mind" ideal.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:44 am It would possibly make you a sort of pseudo-Mahayanist in denial. I don't think you have a desire to discard your last body and discard your mind with it. As such, I don't think that you have "an Arhat ideal." Instead, you seem to have a "realize the unconditioned eternal mind" ideal.
So what is Ceisiwr, since he apparently has an orothdox Thervada conception of Arahantship but believes 'Nirvana is Samsara'? I have the standard view that Samsara and Nirvana are opposing, the latter being the escape from the former.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Coëmgenu »

I think that Ceisiwr is practicing with the ideal that, ideally, this will be his last body and he will not establish a relinking consciousness (nor any other form of consciousness) into the three worlds again. Whether he achieves that or not is anyone's guess. You should ask him though, not me. That would give him "an Arhat ideal." If he's into Ven Nagarjuna, that would make him an eclectic with an Arhat ideal. Once again, you should be asking him, not me.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:05 amI have the standard view that Samsara and Nirvana are opposing, the latter being the escape from the former.
Many Mahayanists also have this view of them opposing. "Orthodox" Madhyamaka is not the default in Mahayana. There are also many different "orthodoxies" of Madhyamaka. What makes you a Mahayanist or not one is your acceptance of the Mahayana sutras as being a form of buddhavacana. This has been the only criteria historically.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Mudryj »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:28 pm
Not sure where you are getting this from. I am pointing this out to dispute the tendency toward the annihilationist position in some Theravadins which equates liberation with simply cessation of the five aggregates. Clearly it is not. This sutta makes clear there is unlimited awareness disjoined from the 5 aggregates, and that the 5 aggregates should not be equated with the totality of what is.

Yes the Buddha transcended all forms of becoming. However giving it a name doesn't mean we place limits on it. I am not identifying him with any form. There are 33 synonyms for Nibbana in the Canon, and also passages referring to it as consciousness that doesn't land. This is a radically liberated and transformed consciousness without any support and freed from any limitations. It would be hard to imagine what it is like.
You are trying to shine the immeasurable tathagata into some kind of awareness. This is your mistake. All places in the canon about "consciousness without a surface" are far-fetched. This passage is simply talking about the state of awakening when the mind does not cling to anything in the world and does not think I am there or here. Thus, the one whose "Self" cannot be defined is not affected by death. How can one die who has become disidentified with the disintegrating aggregates? When you answer this question, you will understand. And the fact that aggregates include all kinds of consciousness is said in the Nail Sutta.
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:06 am I think that Ceisiwr is practicing with the ideal that, ideally, this will be his last body and he will not establish a relinking consciousness (nor any other form of consciousness) into the three worlds again. Whether he achieves that or not is anyone's guess. You should ask him though, not me. That would give him "an Arhat ideal." If he's into Ven Nagarjuna, that would make him an eclectic with an Arhat ideal. Once again, you should be asking him, not me.
I asked you since you attempted to categorize me according to your views.

I am practicing for liberation from the worlds and not to establish a relinking consciousness. However I believe this liberates an uncreated protoconsciousness from any form of rebecoming, and I find support in the Canon and from some Theravadins particularly the Forrest tradition.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:20 am
It seems also you have been hiding for some time that you adhere to Nagarjuna.
Either way, saying "Nibbana is Samsara" is totally wrong and not aligned with Pali Buddhism or what the Buddha taught.
I haven't been hiding anything, and naturally I disagree.
No, we wouldn't expect him to say that since that would simply be the atman doctrine of an unchanging self which is contradicted by the change of the aggregates.

An identityless, nonadhering field of consciousness that is 'deep, immeasurable like the ocean' and disjoined from the five aggregates is extremely close to how it would be described. Coincidently he describes liberation in that way
The foundation of all atta theories is that there is some permanent basis for the atta. Some permanent thing that can be a referent of the word. When you say there is a permanent awareness that is separate from the normal everyday mind, that is exactly the kind of thing traditions like Advaita Vedānta or followers of Patañjali claim.
When the ultimate level of non-reaction has been reached, pure awareness can clearly see itself as
independent from the fundamental qualities of nature

Isvara is a distinct, incorruptible form of pure awareness, utterly independent of cause and effect, and
lacking any store of latent impressions.

Once it is stilled, though, sensory consciousness mirrors unchanging pure awareness, and can reflect itself
being perceived. Then, consciousness can be colored by both pure awareness and the phenomenal world, thereby
fulfilling all its purposes.

The sense of ‘I’ ascribes selfhood to pure awareness by identifying it with the senses.

Patterns of consciousness are always known by pure awareness, their ultimate, unchanging witness

Sensory consciousness, now oriented to this distinction, can gravitate toward freedom - the fully integrated
knowledge that pure awareness is independent from nature.

One who regards even the most exalted states disinterestedly, discriminating continuously between
pure awareness and the phenomenal world, enters the final stage of integration, in which nature is
seen to be a cloud of irreducible dharmas.

Freedom is at hand when the dharmas, each of their transformations witnessed
at the moment of its inception, are recognized as irrelevant to pure awareness; it stands alone,
grounded in its very nature, the power of pure seeing.
That is all.
That is a selection of verses from the Yoga Sutras of Patañjali. This "pure awareness" is your citta. You may not want to call it Ātman, but that is quibbling about labels. Its the same idea. An idea the Buddha rejected as being unfounded. Awareness isn't a static thing in Buddhadhamma. It arises based on conditions, and ceases when conditions fall. To the Buddha, Patañjali was deluded because he was unable to see the conditionality of awareness.
If the Buddha supported your view he wouldn't have called Nibbana an unmade ayatana or dimension/sphere to be known.
He would have just said liberation and cessation is the aggregates ceasing and that's all. Simple, no confusion.
An āyatana is a sense experience.

“There is that sphere, monks, where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air, no sphere of infinite space, no sphere of infinite consciousness, no sphere of nothingness, no sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, no this world, no world beyond, neither Moon nor Sun. There, monks, I say there is surely no coming, no going, no persisting, no passing away, no rebirth It is quite without support, unmoving, without an object,—just this is the end of suffering.”

What is being said here is that when the Buddha awakened he saw that there were no dhammas, no arising (coming), no ceasing (going), no persisting things (including awareness) and so on. All was empty, including emptiness itself.
Furthermore, a mendicant—ignoring the perception of the dimension of nothingness and the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception—focuses on the oneness dependent on the signless immersion of the heart. Their mind becomes eager, confident, settled, and decided in that signless immersion of the heart. They understand: ‘Even this signless immersion of the heart is produced by choices and intentions.’ They understand: ‘But whatever is produced by choices and intentions is impermanent and liable to cessation.’ Knowing and seeing like this, their mind is freed from the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, and ignorance. When they’re freed, they know they’re freed.
https://suttacentral.net/mn121/en/sujat ... ript=latin

Even the signless, which is said to be an aspect of nibbāna, is a condition. Ultimately then emptiness itself is empty. All that we can know are concepts and words.
There are many types of consciousness arising and ceasing all the time. I don't identify with them. I call the witnessing aspect protoconsciouseness and I agree with people like Ven.Sumedho who have spent a lifetime clearing the way to it.

Your speculative views which have no real experience whatsoever to back them up, rely on totally reinterpreting or dismissing many Pali suttas including this one, dismissing experiences of many highly advanced meditators like Thai Forrest monks, and conceptualizing abhidamma theory and appealing to Nagarjuna which has further confused you,
You have no idea what my experience is or what my practice is like. As for speculative views, that is the opposite of my position. Yes, many TFT monks claim there is this permanent awareness thingy. Others play it down. Regardless, it doesn't mean they are right nor that they are the only "highly advanced meditators". The TFT doesn't have a monopoly on that nor wisdom.
and by which you think by logical inference you can 'prove' what the Buddha taught.
You have spent a great deal of time trying to do just that.
On top of this there is a happy with yourself smug sense in doing this even though the Buddha warned against relying on reasoned cognitation in trying to find the dhamma.
This is the problem with communicating via words on a screen. It's hard to read other people.
Stop reading abhidhamma and Nagarjuna and meditate much much more according to teachers like Ajahn Sumedho would my advise.
When I first came to Buddhism 15 years ago I started out with the TFT and Ajahn Sumedho. His monastery is my local one. I've been on retreat there before, and plan to again when they re-open for retreats. I have great respect for the monks and nuns there, but i've moved on quite a bit from those days in terms of my understanding of the Dhamma.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:05 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:44 am It would possibly make you a sort of pseudo-Mahayanist in denial. I don't think you have a desire to discard your last body and discard your mind with it. As such, I don't think that you have "an Arhat ideal." Instead, you seem to have a "realize the unconditioned eternal mind" ideal.
So what is Ceisiwr, since he apparently has an orothdox Thervada conception of Arahantship but believes 'Nirvana is Samsara'? I have the standard view that Samsara and Nirvana are opposing, the latter being the escape from the former.
I suppose you could say I'm non-denominational, to borrow a Christian phrase. My meditation is influenced heavily by Theravāda, although I do draw on what I know of Sarvāstivāda-Vaibhāṣika sometimes too. For example, when it comes to meditation i tend to consult the Mahāprajñāpāramitā-śāstra in addition to the Visuddhimagga and Vimuttimagga. That said I'm sceptical of the vipassanā meditation movement (which I think was also historically found in Sarvāstivāda-Vaibhāṣika, in some form). I think the various Abhidhammas of different schools can also be useful too be it Theravāda, Vaibhāṣika or Mahīśāsaka but ultimately I think the Prajñāpāramitā and Ven. Nāgārjuna were correct. I'm not convinced by the Bodhisattva ideal, preferring instead the Arahant ideal. If I were to go on retreat, or join a Buddhist group, I would likely choose a Theravādin one over a Mahāyāna one and if I ever were to ordain it would likely be in the Thai Forest Tradition here in the U.K.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:44 pm
When I first came to Buddhism 15 years ago I started out with the TFT and Ajahn Sumedho. His monastery is my local one. I've been on retreat there before, and plan to again when they re-open for retreats. I have great respect for the monks and nuns there, but i've moved on quite a bit from those days in terms of my understanding of the Dhamma.
So are you claiming that you are now further on the path and closer to Nibbana then Ajahn Sumedho and TFT monks who use similar terminology?
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:51 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:44 pm
When I first came to Buddhism 15 years ago I started out with the TFT and Ajahn Sumedho. His monastery is my local one. I've been on retreat there before, and plan to again when they re-open for retreats. I have great respect for the monks and nuns there, but i've moved on quite a bit from those days in terms of my understanding of the Dhamma.
So are you claiming that you are now further on the path and closer to Nibbana then Ajahn Sumedho and TFT monks who use similar terminology?
No. I’m saying I see things differently to them.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:12 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:51 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:44 pm
When I first came to Buddhism 15 years ago I started out with the TFT and Ajahn Sumedho. His monastery is my local one. I've been on retreat there before, and plan to again when they re-open for retreats. I have great respect for the monks and nuns there, but i've moved on quite a bit from those days in terms of my understanding of the Dhamma.
So are you claiming that you are now further on the path and closer to Nibbana then Ajahn Sumedho and TFT monks who use similar terminology?
No. I’m saying I see things differently to them.
Ajahn Sumedho is a great example of where in my opinion you have gone off track.

You say you have 'progressed much since then' when you were into him.

Yes you have 'progressed' not really in practice (not much at all if Sumedho is the comparative example) but rather in reading. Abhidhamma and now Nagarjuna. 'Cogitating ones way to Nibbana'.
All this thinking is creating mental images you think match the images the Buddha gave more closely.

It is not really in question that a monk like Ajahn Sumedho is far closer to Nibbana- much higher virtue, much further in Jhana and samadhi, more discernment and far more eradication of defilements. A stream winner through and through at the very least.

Yet you believe your 'concept of Nibbana' is closer to what the Buddha taught than his, even though the Buddha clearly said Nibbana cannot be conceptualized.

So what then is the purpose of supposedly having a 'more accurate in your opinion image of Nibbana', if you are nowhere near as progressed on the path as those with supposedly a 'less correct image'?
Then surely none of this actually matters anyway, over conceptualizing is a trap.
We already use provisional terms like 'oneself' and 'I' for what we see now. If 'consciousness without surface' is likewise a provisional term to refer to something that cannot be conceived of this could also work and someone with such a view may attain the noble attainments. Of course it may even me a somewhat more accurate image anyway.

You vision of Nibbana is essentially annihilation - the cessation of all experience.
Yet this is very easy to conceptualize, and nowhere did the Buddha call Nibbana the cessation of all experience which is what you think it is. If it was he could have just said this.

This also comes across wherebye you are unable to conceive of liberated consciousness without surface, as anything other then an atman, even though clearly it does not have to be this since the aggregates and nama rupa are ever changing which already disproves the atman doctrine.

The way I see it is more akin to a field of 'protoconsciousness' that is no longer involved in the process of rebecoming and recreating a nama-rupa. It can't really be conceptualized when it gets to this level which is why the Buddha called it 'deep, immeasurable, hard to fathom like the ocean'.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by cappuccino »

Bahuna Sutta wrote:Just as a red, blue, or white lotus born in the water and growing in the water, rises up above the water and stands with no water adhering to it, in the same way the Tathagata — freed, dissociated, & released from these ten things — dwells with unrestricted awareness.
Consciousness is awareness
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:36 pm
Ajahn Sumedho is a great example of where in my opinion you have gone off track.

You say you have 'progressed much since then' when you were into him.
That isn't what I said. I said my understanding has moved on.
Yes you have 'progressed' not really in practice (not much at all if Sumedho is the comparative example) but rather in reading. Abhidhamma and now Nagarjuna. 'Cogitating ones way to Nibbana'.
All this thinking is creating mental images you think match the images the Buddha gave more closely.
Once again you are making claims that you can't possibly know. You have no idea what my practice is like. And yes, I consult the masters of old when trying to understand the Dhamma. No different when modern people read Ajahn Sumedho's books really.
It is not really in question that a monk like Ajahn Sumedho is far closer to Nibbana- much higher virtue, much further in Jhana and samadhi, more discernment and far more eradication of defilements. A stream winner through and through at the very least.
I'm not questioning his virtue, nor his meditation (although Ajahn Sumedho prefers the insight method more than Jhāna). As to his level of awakening, I have no idea what that is.
Yet you believe your 'concept of Nibbana' is closer to what the Buddha taught than his, even though the Buddha clearly said Nibbana cannot be conceptualized
I would agree that when it comes to nibbāna concepts such as existence, non-existence and everything in between do not apply. Obviously the word can be known, and the Buddha obviously felt that some indication of what nibbāna is not can be made. It's not arising. It's not ceasing. It's not existence. It's not non-existence and so on.
So what then is the purpose of supposedly having a 'more accurate in your opinion image of Nibbana', if you are nowhere near as progressed on the path as those with supposedly a 'less correct image'?
Once again, you have no idea what my experience is. Regardless whilst ultimately words have no meaning, until we awaken we still have to make use of concepts. Since we have to make use of words and concepts, it's helpful to know what those words mean and what the Buddha meant by using them.
Then surely none of this actually matters anyway, over conceptualizing is a trap.
If by "over conceptualising" you mean making claims that nibbāna is eternal, or not eternal, existing, not-existing and so on then I would agree.
We already use provisional terms like 'oneself' and 'I' for what we see now. If 'consciousness without surface' is likewise a provisional term to refer to something that cannot be conceived of this could also work and someone with such a view may attain the noble attainments. Of course it may even me a somewhat more accurate image anyway.
In all honesty I think it's just another way of talking about infinite space, or an experience of nibbāna. Regardless, what fans of the eternal-citta thingy always forget is that in the end of that stanza consciousness is said to cease.
You vision of Nibbana is essentially annihilation - the cessation of all experience.
Yet this is very easy to conceptualize, and nowhere did the Buddha call Nibbana the cessation of all experience which is what you think it is. If it was he could have just said this.
Whilst he did praise the ending of being, I don't think he meant that nibbāna is the cessation of all experience. I don't think experience or non-experience apply to nibbāna. They would be "over conceptualisations", to borrow your phrase. So no, I'm not an annihilationist. Not that forms of annihilationism are bad of course. The Buddha praised the idea as being the best amongst outside ascetics, unlike the eternalists and their various theories of eternal citta, or viññāṇa, or sañña etc etc.
This also comes across wherebye you are unable to conceive of liberated consciousness without surface, as anything other then an atman, even though clearly it does not have to be this since the aggregates and nama rupa are ever changing which already disproves the atman doctrine.
According to Advaita Vedānta and the Upanishads the Ātman is beyond name and form, the aggregates and sensory consciousness. They say there is an Ātman because there is this permanent awareness which exists behind those things, always, and is unaffected by them. An unconditioned awareness. There exists then something which is the basis for self. Ātman then is this pure and conditioned awareness. All eternalist theories are based on the idea of there being some permanent "thing" to which the word "self" relates to as referent. You may not want to call your "protoconsciousness" Ātman/Brahman, but this is just you disliking the label. What you argue for is the same thing. It would be music to the ears of Ādi Śaṅkarācāryaḥ or Patañjali. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's a ...
The way I see it is more akin to a field of 'protoconsciousness' that is no longer involved in the process of rebecoming and recreating a nama-rupa. It can't really be conceptualized when it gets to this level which is why the Buddha called it 'deep, immeasurable, hard to fathom like the ocean'.
That is very Upanishadic, yes.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:25 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:36 pm
So what then is the purpose of supposedly having a 'more accurate in your opinion image of Nibbana', if you are nowhere near as progressed on the path as those with supposedly a 'less correct image'?
Once again, you have no idea what my experience is. Regardless whilst ultimately words have no meaning, until we awaken we still have to make use of concepts. Since we have to make use of words and concepts, it's helpful to know what those words mean and what the Buddha meant by using them.
Actually I do, since you tend to talk about it quite a bit saying you dedicate significant time to studying abhidhamma and lately Nagarjuna, spend a fair amount of time talking and posting here, and you said previously you have limited meditation practice. There is only so much time one has.
Either way, I do know for a fact that various TFT monks are far further on the path then you in eradication of defilements, and that you claim to have 'a closer conceptual image of nibbana' and I am demonstrating the fallacy of that way of thinking.

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:25 pm Whilst he did praise the ending of being, I don't think he meant that nibbāna is the cessation of all experience. I don't think experience or non-experience apply to nibbāna. They would be "over conceptualisations", to borrow your phrase. So no, I'm not an annihilationist.
This is quibbling and avoiding use of terms.
Nowhere is there any Buddhist nor modern description of 'experience without some form of consciousness'.
Consciousness is experience.
So if you say that you don't think Nibbana is the cessation of all experience, you essentially say that there is some form or type or consciousness there.
I understand the reticence to call it that given that the temporary aggregates consciousness ceases. This is why the Buddha did not call it sensory or nama-rupa consciousness but made indirect allusions to it by way of analogy. It's why TFT masters who realize it struggle to put labels to it. It's also why I call it 'protoconsciousness'.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck....
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:25 pm According to Advaita Vedānta and the Upanishads the Ātman is beyond name and form, the aggregates and sensory consciousness. They say there is an Ātman because there is this permanent awareness which exists behind those things, always, and is unaffected by them. An unconditioned awareness. There exists then something which is the basis for self. Ātman then is this pure and conditioned awareness.

All eternalist theories are based on the idea of there being some permanent "thing" to which the word "self" relates to as referent. You may not want to call your "protoconsciousness" Ātman/Brahman, but this is just you disliking the label.
The later upanishads were likely post Buddhist and influenced by it so this may just reflect early ways Nibbana was understood. It's not necessarily an argument against any overlaps as you think.

Also the atman idea is that there is an entity that is reborn continually which is the self. Clearly that is not what I am saying.

The Buddha spoke of an unconditioned awareness separate from the conditioned, but didn't apply labels to it or say it is self. Nor did he say it is the source of the universe like Advaita.
Maybe it's better to call it a void than a field consciousness.

The Buddha said Nibbana is permanent, but that doesn't make him 'an eternalist'.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:09 pm and you said previously you have limited meditation practice.
I never said this either.
Either way, I do know for a fact that various TFT monks are far further on the path then you in eradication of defilements, and that you claim to have 'a closer conceptual image of nibbana' and I am demonstrating the fallacy of that way of thinking.
I really don’t doubt that there are such monks in the TFT. That said, the TFT isn’t the final authority on the Dhamma here. There are of course well established traditions with earnestly practicing monastics who hold a different view to what is usually (but not always) found in the TFT. Rather though than playing Buddhist top trumps, or having a round of “my favourite monk said, it’s better to refer to the texts instead as a common reference point.
The Buddha said Nibbana is permanent, but that doesn't make him 'an eternalist'.
Did he? Tell me, how can a non-thing be permanent? How can something be permanent yet not exist?

As to the rest that will have to wait until tomorrow, or possibly Friday.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

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Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:48 pm Did he? Tell me, how can a non-thing be permanent? How can something be permanent yet not exist?
The Deathless Element
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