Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

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Cause_and_Effect
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Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

The sutta seems to explicitly declare that the Buddha dwells with limitless awareness (I.e Nibbana) when free and 'dissociated' from the aggregates including the consciousness aggregate.


I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Campa, on the shore of Gaggara Lake. Then Ven. Bahuna went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, freed, dissociated, & released from how many things does the Tathagata dwell with limitless awareness?"

"Freed, dissociated, & released from ten things, Bahuna, the Tathagata dwells with limitless awareness. Which ten? Freed, dissociated, & released from form, the Tathagata dwells with limitless awareness. Freed, dissociated, & released from feeling... Freed, dissociated, & released from perception... Freed, dissociated, & released from fabrications... Freed, dissociated, & released from consciousness... Freed, dissociated, & released from birth... Freed, dissociated, & released from aging... Freed, dissociated, & released from death... Freed, dissociated, & released from stress... Freed, dissociated, & released from defilement, the Tathagata dwells with limitless awareness.

"Just as a red, blue, or white lotus born in the water and growing in the water, rises up above the water and stands with no water adhering to it, in the same way the Tathagata — freed, dissociated, & released from these ten things — dwells with limitless awareness."


https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an ... .than.html

The Buddha here explicitly draws equivalence with this limitless awareness as being the cessation of suffering, cessation of defilements, and cessation of consciousness or cognizance, and cessation of death.

This adds to the significant suttas and verses in the canon that do not draw equivalence with the consciousness aggregate and the mind base of the six sense bases, with the liberated awareness released;
that a much more nuanced approach is needed to understanding how the Buddha uses these terms in the Canon and his equating the goal with liberation of awareness.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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nirodh27
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by nirodh27 »

Hi,

Reminds me of the parable of the Butcher of MN146. The internal disjoined from the external after the removal of craving.

Are we sure that limitless awareness is the best translation?

Sujato:

“Bāhuna, the Realized One has escaped from ten things, so that he lives unattached, liberated, his mind free of limits.
“Dasahi kho, vāhana, dhammehi tathāgato nissaṭo visaṁyutto vippamutto vimariyādīkatena cetasā viharati.
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Ceisiwr »

I'm reminded of this sutta
Greed, hate, and delusion are makers of limits. A mendicant who has ended the defilements has given these up, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, and obliterated them, so they are unable to arise in the future. The unshakable release of the heart is said to be the best kind of limitless release of the heart. That unshakable release of the heart is empty of greed, hate, and delusion.

Greed is something, hate is something, and delusion is something. A mendicant who has ended the defilements has given these up, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, and obliterated them, so they are unable to arise in the future. The unshakable release of the heart is said to be the best kind of release of the heart through nothingness. That unshakable release of the heart is empty of greed, hate, and delusion.

Greed, hate, and delusion are makers of signs. A mendicant who has ended the defilements has given these up, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, and obliterated them, so they are unable to arise in the future. The unshakable release of the heart is said to be the best kind of signless release of the heart. That unshakable release of the heart is empty of greed, hate, and delusion.
https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato

The first refers to hate, jealousy etc and has the brahmavihārās as their antidote and culminates in them. The 2nd I would argue refers to the marks of beauty, permanence and sukha and has foulness, impermanence and dukkha as it's opposite and culminates in the base of "nothingness". The 3rd relates to sense objects which has the emptiness of signs as it's opposite and culminates in the "signless". Just what signless means though is open to debate. To Theravāda this means that nibbāna is being cognised, since nibbāna is signless. To a Madhyamaka it means phenomena are seen as being empty, and so are signless. Neither of those establish a permanent consciousness thingy. To the Theravādin the consciousness which cognises nibbāna is impermanent. Only nibbāna is permanent. To the Madhyamaka the negation of sense objects is also the negation of consciousness itself. Personally I don't see how the sutta in your OP gets you to your permanent consciousness thingy. Can you unpack it?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

nirodh27 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:00 pm Hi,

Reminds me of the parable of the Butcher of MN146. The internal disjoined from the external after the removal of craving.

Are we sure that limitless awareness is the best translation?

Sujato:

“Bāhuna, the Realized One has escaped from ten things, so that he lives unattached, liberated, his mind free of limits.
“Dasahi kho, vāhana, dhammehi tathāgato nissaṭo visaṁyutto vippamutto vimariyādīkatena cetasā viharati.
Limitless awareness/mind without limits are both fine I don't see any significant difference.

There is a lot of interest in this sutta.
One thing of note is how the mind is released and freed when totally disjoined from the consciousness aggregate.

This raises the question how is the consciousness aggregate to be correctly understood in the suttas?
I have argued many times that it represents essentially cognizance of sensory objects (including mind-objects).

I often hear however erroneous arguments that the vinnana aggregate covers all types of ontological consciousness whatsoever, usually quoting a sutta seemingly to this effect stating any consciousness whatsoever far or near etc is inconstant, suffering. However such passages are not meant to be metaphysical speculations but practical instructions.

It is very clear from this sutta that the consciousness aggregate does not cover all types of awareness.
The Buddha specifically says his awareness is without limits when freed from consciousness aggregate.

This lends support to the view that the aggregates consciousness teaching is regarding only any arising and ceasing cognizance that arise with objects. This makes sense.

This would then fit then with how the mind that is liberated where suffering has ceased, is totally disjoined from any cognizance that occurs at the sense gates.

That unconditioned limitless mind is Nibbana. It is signless in that it cannot be recognized by any object since it is the 'background' awareness and does not rise with any sign or object, unlike the inconstant consciousness aggregate.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by pegembara »

Objects(5 aggregates) that arise and cease are conditioned.
Then there is the Unconditioned.
But there is no ultimate subject(the I am God/Atman/Brahman).

Sabbe sankhara anicca
Sabbe dhamma anatta - not just sabbe sankhara anatta!
Form is like a glob of foam;
feeling, a bubble;
perception, a mirage;
fabrications, a banana tree;
consciousness, a magic trick —
this has been taught
by the Kinsman of the Sun.
However you observe them,
appropriately examine them,
they're empty, void
to whoever sees them
appropriately.
What is not a bubble, mirage, foam or magic trick?
“For those standing in the middle of a lake, when a fearful flood has
arisen, for those overcome by old age and death, speak about an
island, dear Sir, you must explain an island to me, so there will be no
more after this.”

“For those standing in the middle of a lake, when a fearful flood has
arisen, for those overcome by old age and death, I speak about an
island, Kappa: Having nothing, no attachment, this is the island with
nothing beyond, this is called Nibbāna, I say, the end of old age and
death. Knowing this, those who are mindful, who are emancipated in
this very life, come not under Māra’s control, they are not servants to
Māra.”

Kappa’s Questions
Parayanavagga
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Spiny Norman »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:59 am The sutta seems to explicitly declare that the Buddha dwells with limitless awareness (I.e Nibbana) when free and 'dissociated' from the aggregates including the consciousness aggregate.


I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Campa, on the shore of Gaggara Lake. Then Ven. Bahuna went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, freed, dissociated, & released from how many things does the Tathagata dwell with limitless awareness?"

"Freed, dissociated, & released from ten things, Bahuna, the Tathagata dwells with limitless awareness. Which ten? Freed, dissociated, & released from form, the Tathagata dwells with limitless awareness. Freed, dissociated, & released from feeling... Freed, dissociated, & released from perception... Freed, dissociated, & released from fabrications... Freed, dissociated, & released from consciousness... Freed, dissociated, & released from birth... Freed, dissociated, & released from aging... Freed, dissociated, & released from death... Freed, dissociated, & released from stress... Freed, dissociated, & released from defilement, the Tathagata dwells with limitless awareness.

"Just as a red, blue, or white lotus born in the water and growing in the water, rises up above the water and stands with no water adhering to it, in the same way the Tathagata — freed, dissociated, & released from these ten things — dwells with limitless awareness."


https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an ... .than.html

The Buddha here explicitly draws equivalence with this limitless awareness as being the cessation of suffering, cessation of defilements, and cessation of consciousness or cognizance, and cessation of death.

This adds to the significant suttas and verses in the canon that do not draw equivalence with the consciousness aggregate and the mind base of the six sense bases, with the liberated awareness released;
that a much more nuanced approach is needed to understanding how the Buddha uses these terms in the Canon and his equating the goal with liberation of awareness.
A couple of questions:
1. What Pali term is rendered as "limitless awareness" in the above sutta?
2. What is this limitless awareness aware of, if it's not aware of sense-objects?
I don't think it can be Nibbana, since that is said to be a mind object.
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Assaji »

Hi,
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:01 am 1. What Pali term is rendered as "limitless awareness" in the above sutta?
The Sutta says: "... vimariyādīkatena cetasā ..."

Vimariyādikata (adj.) [vi+mariyādā+kata] lit. made unrestricted, i. e. delivered, set free S ii.173; iii.31 (vippamutto ˚ena cetasā viharati); vi.11; A v.151 sq. -- At Th 1, 184 v. l. for vipariyādi˚.

https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/p ... rchhws=yes

Mariyādā (f.) [cp. Vedic maryādā; perhaps related to Lat. mare sea; s. Walde, Lat. Wtb. under mare] 1. boundary limit, shore, embankment Vin iii.50; A iii.227 (brāhmaṇānaŋ); D iii.92=Vism 419; J v.325; vi.536 (tīra˚) Mhvs 34, 70; 36, 59 (vāpi˚); Miln 416. -- 2. strictly defined relation, rule, control J ii.215; Vism 15. -- adj keeping to the lines (or boundaries), observing strict rules A iii.227 (quoted SnA 318, 325). ˚bandha keeping in control Vin i.287. -- Cp. vimariyādi.
Puna ca paraṃ bhikkhave, sāriputto sabbaso nevasaññā nāsaññāyatanaṃ samatikkamma saññāvedayitanirodhaṃ upasampajja viharati. Paññāya cassa disvā āsavā parikkhīṇā honti. So tāya samāpattiyā sato vuṭṭhahitvā ye te dhammā1 atītā niruddhā vipariṇatā, te dhamme samanupassati: 'evaṃ kira me dhammā ahutvā sambhonti, hutvā paṭiventī'ti. So tesu dhammesu anupayo anapāyo anissito appaṭibaddho vippamutto visaṃyutto vimariyādīkatena cetasā viharati so natthi uttariṃ nissaraṇanti pajānāti. Tabbahulīkārā natthitvevassa hoti.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

In Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation:
"He understood thus: 'So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish.' Regarding those states, he abided unattracted, unrepelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers."
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:37 pm To the Theravādin the consciousness which cognises nibbāna is impermanent.
inconstant, changes
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Pondera »

Consciousness is used as a technical term. There are sense objects, sense faculties, and the sense consciousness that connects the two.

It is like what we have with the moon, the earth, and the gravity that connects the two. Despite the space between, they are connected.

Perception and feeling is the same. In the absence of a transport system (like sense consciousness) the sense objects and sense faculties exist with only spatial relation (ie. no perception occurring).

This is exactly how and why nirodha Samapatti is Nibbana. Where there is no consciousness there is no feeling or perception (in a very technical sense consciousness is a carrier vector for perception). There is no footing for form or the elements to invade the mind. There is no further suffering.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by cappuccino »

Pondera wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:19 am Where there is no consciousness … There is no further suffering.
annihilation is suffering
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

pegembara wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:32 am Objects(5 aggregates) that arise and cease are conditioned.
Then there is the Unconditioned.

But there is no ultimate subject
(the I am God/Atman/Brahman).

Sabbe sankhara anicca
Sabbe dhamma anatta - not just sabbe sankhara anatta!
Where does the Buddha say that there is an end of subjectivity? The Buddha's teachings are entirely the domain of subjective experience.
Nibbana is described in both subjective ('the peaceful', 'the unailing state') and objective terms ('the island').

The 'I am' conceit is one of the final defilements to let go of, that is identifying with the awareness as 'me' or 'mine'. But pure undefiled subjectivity does not have to come with conceptualizations of 'I am' (a false concept of identification with the deathless liberated mind) or 'God' (conceptualizing the liberated awareness as the source of the phenomenal universe).

It can simply be the undecaying, undefiled experience of pure limitless awareness without disturbance.

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:01 am
2. What is this limitless awareness aware of, if it's not aware of sense-objects?
I don't think it can be Nibbana, since that is said to be a mind object.
It has no object, so it is signless.

It would be aware only of itself, and it's freedom from all limitations of becoming.

Is Nibbana an object or subject?
Or can it be both, the pure subjectivity aware of itself as object?
Last edited by Cause_and_Effect on Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by cappuccino »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:01 am What is this limitless awareness aware of, if it's not aware of sense-objects?
aware of being free
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by pegembara »

There are 2 Nibbana elements - one with objects and the other without.
“What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.

“Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant … completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.
"This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana."

— AN 3.32
"There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor stasis; neither passing away nor arising: without stance, without foundation, without support [mental object]. This, just this, is the end of stress."

— Ud 8.1
"There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned."

— Ud 8.3
"Furthermore, a sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die, is unagitated, and is free from longing. He has nothing whereby he would be born. Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die? Not dying, will he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what will he long? It was in reference to this that it was said, ‘He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace.’ —MN 140
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by pegembara »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:53 am
pegembara wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:32 am Objects(5 aggregates) that arise and cease are conditioned.
Then there is the Unconditioned.

But there is no ultimate subject
(the I am God/Atman/Brahman).

Sabbe sankhara anicca
Sabbe dhamma anatta - not just sabbe sankhara anatta!
Where does the Buddha say that there is an end of subjectivity? The Buddha's teachings are entirely the domain of subjective experience.
Nibbana is described in both subjective ('the peaceful', 'the unailing state') and objective terms ('the island').

The 'I am' conceit is one of the final defilements to let go of, that is identifying with the awareness as 'me' or 'mine'. But pure undefiled subjectivity does not have to come with conceptualizations of 'I am' (a false concept of identification with the deathless liberated mind) or 'God' (conceptualizing the liberated awareness as the source of the phenomenal universe).

It can simply be the undecaying, undefiled experience of pure limitless awareness without disturbance.
The teachings are to be experienced by the wise which is purely subjective but there is ultimately no subject(all things are without self).
One can be aware of thoughts and thinking. That there is a thinker independent of thoughts/thinking ie a subject is a delusion.

"Which consciousness, Sāti, is that?" [1]

"This speaker, this knower, lord, that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & evil actions."

"And to whom, worthless man, do you understand me to have taught the Dhamma like that? Haven't I, in many ways, said of dependently co-arisen consciousness, 'Apart from a requisite condition, there is no coming-into-play of consciousness'? [2] But you, through your own poor grasp, not only slander us but also dig yourself up [by the root] and produce much demerit for yourself. That will lead to your long-term harm & suffering."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by form »

Whatever translation is name and form that is feed into consciousness. So there is no such thing as best translation.
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