Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

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Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

pegembara wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:11 am
The teachings are to be experienced by the wise which is purely subjective but there is ultimately no subject(all things are without self).
There is no subject in the end, there is only pure subjective experience.
pegembara wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:11 am One can be aware of thoughts and thinking. That there is a thinker independent of thoughts/thinking ie a subject is a delusion.
Yes, no conceptualizing of a self apart from, within or the same as subjectivity should be made.

But there can be pure subjective experience without conceptualizing or identifying.
That all phenomena are not-self does not have to mean that all subjectivity ends with the final goal, but that all grasping and identifying with it ends.

There can be thoughts without a thinker.
There can be pure awareness without grasping at a self and indentifying or conceptualizing.

It is a subtle difference when we get to this level as the 'I am' is the final defilement to drop.
pegembara wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:11 am
"Which consciousness, Sāti, is that?" [1]

"This speaker, this knower, lord, that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & evil actions."

"And to whom, worthless man, do you understand me to have taught the Dhamma like that? Haven't I, in many ways, said of dependently co-arisen consciousness, 'Apart from a requisite condition, there is no coming-into-play of consciousness'? [2] But you, through your own poor grasp, not only slander us but also dig yourself up [by the root] and produce much demerit for yourself. That will lead to your long-term harm & suffering."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Sati believed in the Atman doctrine.

Now on that occasion a pernicious view had arisen in a bhikkhu named Sāti, son of a fisherman, thus: “As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is this same consciousness that runs and wanders through the round of rebirths, not another....”


Then those bhikkhus, desiring to detach him from that pernicious view, pressed and questioned and cross-questioned him thus: “Friend Sāti, do not say so. Do not misrepresent the Blessed One; it is not good to misrepresent the Blessed One. The Blessed One would not speak thus. For in many ways the Blessed One has stated consciousness to be dependently arisen, since without a condition there is no origination of consciousness.”
The Buddha corrected his wrong view.

By saying 'this speaker, this knower is reborn' he conceptualizes an independent and indestructible self.

The Buddha broke down how the aggregates are conditionally arisen and how cognizance and knowing arises dependent on object.

The sutta does not address whether there is in the end a pure subjective awareness freed from involvement with the aggregates as the Bahuha sutta describes, but only how misconstruing from our experience a self that is reborn is a wrong view.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Spiny Norman »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:53 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:01 am
2. What is this limitless awareness aware of, if it's not aware of sense-objects?
I don't think it can be Nibbana, since that is said to be a mind object.
It has no object, so it is signless.

It would be aware only of itself, and it's freedom from all limitations of becoming.

Is Nibbana an object or subject?
Or can it be both, the pure subjectivity aware of itself as object?
I don't understand how awareness without an object works. Doesn't awareness rely on something to be aware of?
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

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cappuccino wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:57 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:01 am What is this limitless awareness aware of, if it's not aware of sense-objects?
aware of being free
Free of what?
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by cappuccino »

Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:24 am Free of what?
just freedom
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by pegembara »

Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:55 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:53 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:01 am
2. What is this limitless awareness aware of, if it's not aware of sense-objects?
I don't think it can be Nibbana, since that is said to be a mind object.
It has no object, so it is signless.

It would be aware only of itself, and it's freedom from all limitations of becoming.

Is Nibbana an object or subject?
Or can it be both, the pure subjectivity aware of itself as object?
I don't understand how awareness without an object works. Doesn't awareness rely on something to be aware of?
You can be aware that you are not asleep or that you are conscious ie. "awareness aware of itself".
With the turning way from sights, sounds, smells, taste, touch, thoughts, feelings, perceptions what is left?
Bhikkhus, all is burning. And what is the all that is burning?

"The eye is burning, forms are burning, eye-consciousness is burning, eye-contact is burning, also whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact for its indispensable condition, that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs.

"The ear is burning, sounds are burning...

"The nose is burning, odors are burning...

"The tongue is burning, flavors are burning...

"The body is burning, tangibles are burning...

"The mind is burning, ideas are burning, mind-consciousness is burning, mind-contact is burning, also whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with mind-contact for its indispensable condition, that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with the eye, disenchanted with forms, disenchanted with consciousness at the eye, disenchanted with contact at the eye, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with craving.

"He grows disenchanted with the ear...

"He grows disenchanted with the nose...

"He grows disenchanted with the tongue...

"He grows disenchanted with the body...

"He grows disenchanted with the intellect, disenchanted with ideas, disenchanted with consciousness at the intellect, disenchanted with contact at the intellect, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with craving. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:37 pm ~
I would like to see you wrangle your way out of this in an attempt to support your nihilist position.

So what is the meaning of the statement,
"the Tathagata dwells with limitless awareness when freed, dissociated and released from the consciousness aggregate"

How does this not support that:

a) the consciousness aggregate therefore refers to any form of cognizance, but cannot be referring to any form of ontological awareness that there can be

b) limitless awareness freed from landing on or cognizing any object is Nibbana i.e the signless concentration
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by confusedlayman »

So no vitakka and vicara ?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:29 am

I would like to see you wrangle your way out of this in an attempt to support your nihilist position.
I'm not a nihilist.
So what is the meaning of the statement,
"the Tathagata dwells with limitless awareness when freed, dissociated and released from the consciousness aggregate"

How does this not support that:

a) the consciousness aggregate therefore refers to any form of cognizance, but cannot be referring to any form of ontological awareness that there can be

b) limitless awareness freed from landing on or cognizing any object is Nibbana i.e the signless concentration
I think in order to answer that we first have to know what a limited mind is.
Greed, hate, and delusion are makers of limits. A mendicant who has ended the defilements has given these up, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, and obliterated them, so they are unable to arise in the future. The unshakable release of the heart is said to be the best kind of limitless release of the heart. That unshakable release of the heart is empty of greed, hate, and delusion.

Greed is something, hate is something, and delusion is something. A mendicant who has ended the defilements has given these up, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, and obliterated them, so they are unable to arise in the future. The unshakable release of the heart is said to be the best kind of release of the heart through nothingness. That unshakable release of the heart is empty of greed, hate, and delusion.

Greed, hate, and delusion are makers of signs. A mendicant who has ended the defilements has given these up, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, and obliterated them, so they are unable to arise in the future. The unshakable release of the heart is said to be the best kind of signless release of the heart. That unshakable release of the heart is empty of greed, hate, and delusion.
https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato ... ript=latin

So a limited mind is one defiled by greed, hatred and delusion. This sets up "limits", "something" and "signs". Limits refers to bias, romantic love, jealousy of other, having enemies etc. It's opposite are the brahmavihārās, which have no limits. Something refers to "something worth having" IMO, although Coëmgenu recently commented elsewhere that it might mean "things" in general. Either way greed, hatred and delusion limit the mind to "things worth having" or simply "things". It's opposite is ākiñcaññāyatana. Signs refers to sense experience. We form a concept of experience, be it visual, tactile or mental experience, through signs. Sense experience then is merely a construct out of greed, hatred and delusion. The mind is then limited to the senses. To the All. It's opposite is the signless, where there isn't an experience of an eye or forms etc. An unlimited mind then is a mind freed from these limitations, which is another way of saying that the mind is free from the āsavas. It would be free of "lovers & enemies", "pleasurable objects" and "sights, tastes, houses, gods". Now all of these attainments are simply a means to abandon said greed, hatred and delusion. The brahmavihārās is one way. So is ākiñcaññāyatana, the signless a third. All 3 however are impermanent. The signless isn't nibbāna anymore than the brahmavihārās or ākiñcaññāyatana are, but it is a means of getting there.
Furthermore, a mendicant—ignoring the perception of the dimension of nothingness and the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception—focuses on the oneness dependent on the signless immersion of the heart. Their mind becomes eager, confident, settled, and decided in that signless immersion of the heart. They understand: ‘Even this signless immersion of the heart is produced by choices and intentions.’ They understand: ‘But whatever is produced by choices and intentions is impermanent and liable to cessation.’ Knowing and seeing like this, their mind is freed from the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, and ignorance. When they’re freed, they know they’re freed.

They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’
https://suttacentral.net/mn121/en/sujat ... ript=latin

Since the signless means seeing the world as being empty of the senses and their objects, in other words seeing dhammas as being empty, then that which cognises dhammas would also be seen as being empty. There is no understanding one without the other, and so the negation of one negates the other. All that is left is the emptiness of the signless, but even that too is empty. It too is a concept which must be let go of.

They understand: ‘Here there is no stress due to the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, or ignorance. There is only this modicum of stress, namely that associated with the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’ They understand: ‘This field of perception is empty of the perception of the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, and ignorance. There is only this that is not emptiness, namely that associated with the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’ And so they regard it as empty of what is not there, but as to what remains they understand that it is present. That’s how emptiness is born in them—genuine, undistorted, and pure.

So, to summarise I don't think this unlimited awareness is evidence of a permanent consciousness thingy. Rather it shows the negation of consciousness and, eventually, even emptiness and nibbāna itself (for those too are also mere concepts).
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:54 pm ~
There is a lot there with the connection to the signless concentration.

But let's go over the basics first.

So in light of this sutta, what is the consciousness aggregate, if the mind is limitless on cessation of said aggregate?
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:53 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:54 pm ~
There is a lot there with the connection to the signless concentration.

But let's go over the basics first.

So in light of this sutta, what is the consciousness aggregate, if the mind is limitless on cessation of said aggregate?
I don't see "cessation" in the sutta, and I'm not aware of any sutta where the Buddha says that after the cessation of consciousness there is still consciousness? It seems to me the sutta is saying that the Buddha is no longer soiled with the underlying tendencies, and so is no longer restricted by conceptual constructs imposed upon experience. Consciousness is a concept, and the concept is seen for what it is. Merely that.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:36 pm I don't see "cessation" in the sutta,
The Buddha discussed those aggregates and things fully released from.
So are you arguing that the Buddha is not saying the defilements have ended and death has ended also, as these are included in exactly the same context as the discussion of the release from the consciousness aggregate in the sutta?
Obviously the sense faculty cognizance is still functioning. But he says his liberated consciousness is released from such sense bases consciousness, and released from death.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:36 pm and I'm not aware of any sutta where the Buddha says that after the cessation of consciousness there is still consciousness?
The Buddha talks about cessation of various sensory consciousness all the time throughout the Canon and other consciousness remaining since this is how the mind functions.

In terms of the consciousness associated with the All ceasing (the six sense bases) and yet an undying consciousness remaining, we have of course plenty of references as well as the Bahuna sutta:

Where do water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing?
Where are long & short,
coarse & fine,
fair & foul,
name & form
brought to an end?
"'And the answer to that is:


Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness
each is here brought to an end.'"


https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn ... .than.html

"Just as if there were a roofed house or a roofed hall having windows on the north, the south, or the east. When the sun rises, and a ray has entered by way of the window, where does it land?"

"On the western wall, lord."

"And if there is no western wall, where does it land?"

"On the ground, lord."

"And if there is no ground, where does it land?"

"On the water, lord."

"And if there is no water, where does it land?"

"It does not land, lord."

"In the same way, where there is no passion for the nutriment of physical food ... contact ... intellectual intention ... consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or grow. Where consciousness does not land or grow, name-&-form does not alight. Where name-&-form does not alight, there is no growth of fabrications. Where there is no growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:36 pm It seems to me the sutta is saying that the Buddha is no longer soiled with the underlying tendencies, and so is no longer restricted by conceptual constructs imposed upon experience.
Yes, and that what remains with the full release from the aggregates is limitless awareness.

Ergo , there is awareness beyond the functioning of the five aggregates according to the Buddha's teaching as recorded in the Pali Canon.

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:36 pm Consciousness is a concept, and the concept is seen for what it is. Merely that.
No, consciousness is not a concept. It is that which cognizes.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:15 pm
The Buddha discussed those aggregates and things fully released from.
So are you arguing that the Buddha is not saying the defilements have ended and death has ended also, as these are included in exactly the same context as the discussion of the release from the consciousness aggregate in the sutta?
Obviously the sense faculty cognizance is still functioning. But he says his liberated consciousness is released from such sense bases consciousness, and released from death.
The sutta doesn't mention death. The Buddha is discussing how he was right there and then. Right there he was released from those things. Released from doesn't necessarily mean they have ceased. If you cease identifying with something you are no longer reckoned by it and so are released from being defined by it. Nothing in that means the thing you are no longer identifying with is no longer there.
In terms of the consciousness associated with the All ceasing (the six sense bases) and yet an undying consciousness remaining, we have of course plenty of references as well as the Bahuna sutta:

Where do water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing?
Where are long & short,
coarse & fine,
fair & foul,
name & form
brought to an end?
"'And the answer to that is:


Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness
each is here brought to an end.'"
Your quote states that with the cessation of consciousness all those prior things too end.
"In the same way, where there is no passion for the nutriment of physical food ... contact ... intellectual intention ... consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or grow. Where consciousness does not land or grow, name-&-form does not alight. Where name-&-form does not alight, there is no growth of fabrications. Where there is no growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair."
I assume we both take this to be referring to the end of life for an awakened person. This then is referring to rebirth. For said person, there is no longer rebirth-linking consciousness. Consciousness then does not become established in name-&-form. Since the two depend on each other, both then will cease.
Yes, and that what remains with the full release from the aggregates is limitless awareness.

Ergo , there is awareness beyond the functioning of the five aggregates according to the Buddha's teaching as recorded in the Pali Canon.
If sense experience has been negated then so has consciousness itself, since the two stand in relation to each other. You can't understand long without a concept of short, to paraphrase a common Madhyamaka argument.
No, consciousness is not a concept. It is that which cognizes.
See above. If ultimately emptiness is true, where is consciousness?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by davlovsky »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:15 pm Yes, and that what remains with the full release from the aggregates is limitless awareness.

Ergo , there is awareness beyond the functioning of the five aggregates according to the Buddha's teaching as recorded in the Pali Canon.
I think you're correct. Limitless awareness that is completely unconditioned, i.e. deathless and absolute. It's just beyond the 4th Jhana, where the mind already becomes luminous but still flickers a little, like a candle. After the 4th Jhana comes the destruction of feeling and perception and asavas, or outflows, these millions of tendrils pursuing existence (becoming) through the 6 sense gates. It's a total severing of the outflows and a pure release into the deathless state.
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Ceisiwr »

davlovsky wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:53 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:15 pm Yes, and that what remains with the full release from the aggregates is limitless awareness.

Ergo , there is awareness beyond the functioning of the five aggregates according to the Buddha's teaching as recorded in the Pali Canon.
I think you're correct. Limitless awareness that is completely unconditioned, i.e. deathless and absolute. It's just beyond the 4th Jhana, where the mind already becomes luminous but still flickers a little, like a candle. After the 4th Jhana comes the destruction of feeling and perception and asavas, or outflows, these millions of tendrils pursuing existence (becoming) through the 6 sense gates. It's a total severing of the outflows and a pure release into the deathless state.
What do you mean by "beyond the 4th Jhāna"? Not the formless I assume?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
davlovsky
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by davlovsky »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:59 pm
davlovsky wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:53 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:15 pm Yes, and that what remains with the full release from the aggregates is limitless awareness.

Ergo , there is awareness beyond the functioning of the five aggregates according to the Buddha's teaching as recorded in the Pali Canon.
I think you're correct. Limitless awareness that is completely unconditioned, i.e. deathless and absolute. It's just beyond the 4th Jhana, where the mind already becomes luminous but still flickers a little, like a candle. After the 4th Jhana comes the destruction of feeling and perception and asavas, or outflows, these millions of tendrils pursuing existence (becoming) through the 6 sense gates. It's a total severing of the outflows and a pure release into the deathless state.
What do you mean by "beyond the 4th Jhāna"? Not the formless I assume?
No, this would be beyond the 4 arupa Jhānas, and the formless realms, which are still conditioned. From my understanding, it's with the destruction of the asavas that you're no longer in the world of becoming. I think at this point your heart and breathing stop, but you still generate body heat, and can maintain this state of deathless absorption for up to seven days.

As to how one would describe the deathless state/Nibbana, as e.g. "limitless awareness" or "superposition of the Mind" or etc. -we can only speculate or conceptualize based on what's in the suttas, or we're arahants.
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