Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Ceisiwr »

davlovsky wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:22 pm

No, this would be beyond the 4 arupa Jhānas, and the formless realms, which are still conditioned. From my understanding, it's with the destruction of the asavas that you're no longer in the world of becoming. I think at this point your heart and breathing stop, but you still generate body heat, and can maintain this state of deathless absorption for up to seven days.

As to how one would describe the deathless state/Nibbana, as e.g. "limitless awareness" or "superposition of the Mind" or etc. -we can only speculate or conceptualize based on what's in the suttas, or we're arahants.
Are you talking about nirodha-samāpatti?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by davlovsky »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:23 pm
davlovsky wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:22 pm

No, this would be beyond the 4 arupa Jhānas, and the formless realms, which are still conditioned. From my understanding, it's with the destruction of the asavas that you're no longer in the world of becoming. I think at this point your heart and breathing stop, but you still generate body heat, and can maintain this state of deathless absorption for up to seven days.

As to how one would describe the deathless state/Nibbana, as e.g. "limitless awareness" or "superposition of the Mind" or etc. -we can only speculate or conceptualize based on what's in the suttas, or we're arahants.
Are you talking about nirodha-samāpatti?
4 arupa jhanas -> cessations of perception and feeling (nirodha-samāpatti) -> destruction of the asavas -> complete Awakening
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

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davlovsky wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:28 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:23 pm
davlovsky wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:22 pm

No, this would be beyond the 4 arupa Jhānas, and the formless realms, which are still conditioned. From my understanding, it's with the destruction of the asavas that you're no longer in the world of becoming. I think at this point your heart and breathing stop, but you still generate body heat, and can maintain this state of deathless absorption for up to seven days.

As to how one would describe the deathless state/Nibbana, as e.g. "limitless awareness" or "superposition of the Mind" or etc. -we can only speculate or conceptualize based on what's in the suttas, or we're arahants.
Are you talking about nirodha-samāpatti?
4 arupa jhanas -> cessations of perception and feeling (nirodha-samāpatti) -> destruction of the asavas -> complete Awakening
Thanks for clarifying. Upon emerging from the attainment there is said to be either emptiness contact, signless contact or wishless contact. Any of those contacts leads to full awakening or non-return. Wishless isn't ever really discussed much, but the other two are said to be meditative attainments. In other places they are all said to be saying the same thing. If we take the signless, it is the negation of "signs". If signs are negated then sense experience is negated. The question then arises, how is consciousness not also negated since consciousness can only be known in relation to an object?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by davlovsky »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:31 pm
davlovsky wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:28 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:23 pm

Are you talking about nirodha-samāpatti?
4 arupa jhanas -> cessations of perception and feeling (nirodha-samāpatti) -> destruction of the asavas -> complete Awakening
Thanks for clarifying. Upon emerging from the attainment there is said to be either emptiness contact, signless contact or wishless contact. Any of those contacts leads to full awakening or non-return. Wishless isn't ever really discussed much, but the other two are said to be meditative attainments. In other places they are all said to be saying the same thing. If we take the signless, it is the negation of "signs". If signs are negated then sense experience is negated. The question then arises, how is consciousness not also negated since consciousness can only be known in relation to an object?
So maybe this is why "awareness" instead of consciousness was initially used, because you are right -that consciousness require an object, but in the signless, your attachment with the world and things are severed. The way you interact with the worlds, which are still existent, is no longer based on signs.

I haven't read much of what the suttas say yet of the wishless, but in my understanding it would designate the complete eradication of the desire to become, which is incredibly strong for most beings, especially humans.
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

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davlovsky wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:53 pm I think you're correct. Limitless awareness that is completely unconditioned, i.e. deathless and absolute. It's just beyond the 4th Jhana, where the mind already becomes luminous but still flickers a little, like a candle. After the 4th Jhana comes the destruction of feeling and perception and asavas, or outflows, these millions of tendrils pursuing existence (becoming) through the 6 sense gates. It's a total severing of the outflows and a pure release into the deathless state.


From my understanding, it's with the destruction of the asavas that you're no longer in the world of becoming. I think at this point your heart and breathing stop, but you still generate body heat, and can maintain this state of deathless absorption for up to seven days.

As to how one would describe the deathless state/Nibbana, as e.g. "limitless awareness" or "superposition of the Mind" or etc. -we can only speculate or conceptualize based on what's in the suttas, or we're arahants.
:goodpost:

This is it.

The Buddha's teachings do not really make sense without this understanding.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

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davlovsky wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:51 pm
So maybe this is why "awareness" instead of consciousness
What’s the difference?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by davlovsky »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:13 am
davlovsky wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:51 pm
So maybe this is why "awareness" instead of consciousness
What’s the difference?
As far as I can tell, it's that awareness is "unrestricted" ergo, all-pervasive, where everything is perfectly intelligible, luminous in all directions, on the "other side" of the world of becoming, like the lotus growing up and out of the water in the last paragraph of the Bahuna Sutta:

"Just as a red, blue, or white lotus born in the water and growing in the water, rises up above the water and stands with no water adhering to it, in the same way the Tathagata — freed, dissociated, & released from these ten things — dwells with unrestricted awareness."

Consciousness is still karmically bound. Advanced disciples or arahants existing in the human realm probably have to deal with a certain amount of it, even though they can break through into the unconditioned, manifest psychic powers, etc.

Consciousness is this taking for real what is perceived by some combination of the six sense organs, where the asavas are what tether us to one of these domains. Nibbana and Parinibbana seems to be on the other side of, and completely unaffected by, these worlds of birth and death.
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

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davlovsky wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:18 pm […
Are you translating “citta” as “awareness” here?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by davlovsky »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:20 pm
davlovsky wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:18 pm […
Are you translating “citta” as “awareness” here?
I wouldn't say that citta is identical to awareness, but a quality of it, and the purification of which is a part of the process toward Awakening, or "unrestricted awareness".
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Ceisiwr »

davlovsky wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:33 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:20 pm
davlovsky wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:18 pm […
Are you translating “citta” as “awareness” here?
I wouldn't say that citta is identical to awareness, but a quality of it, and the purification of which is a part of the process toward Awakening, or "unrestricted awareness".
What pali word then are you translating as “awareness”?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
davlovsky
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by davlovsky »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:48 pm
davlovsky wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:33 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:20 pm

Are you translating “citta” as “awareness” here?
I wouldn't say that citta is identical to awareness, but a quality of it, and the purification of which is a part of the process toward Awakening, or "unrestricted awareness".
What pali word then are you translating as “awareness”?
I'd say it would be related to sabbaññū, or all-knowing, omniscience, not knowing everything simultaneously, but "that all knowable things are potentially accessible to him, and must advert to whatever he wishes to know".

I'm unfortunately not well-versed in Pali-English translation, but I'd be interested in the Pali version of the Bahuna sutta to see what they used.
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:48 pm
davlovsky wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:33 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:20 pm

Are you translating “citta” as “awareness” here?
I wouldn't say that citta is identical to awareness, but a quality of it, and the purification of which is a part of the process toward Awakening, or "unrestricted awareness".
What pali word then are you translating as “awareness”?
You will not gain a breakthrough to the dhamma by over analyzing words.
Words represent concepts, often difficult to know fully and which point to experience.
The descriptions in the Canon of this subject can only ever be that; generic conceptual descriptions intended to lead you to practice and meditation and then realizing what the meaning of those words and analogies really is.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:35 pm The sutta doesn't mention death. The Buddha is discussing how he was right there and then. Right there he was released from those things. Released from doesn't necessarily mean they have ceased. If you cease identifying with something you are no longer reckoned by it and so are released from being defined by it. Nothing in that means the thing you are no longer identifying with is no longer there.
Yes, it does mention death.

"Freed, dissociated, & released from consciousness, the Tathagata dwells with limitless awareness...
Freed, dissociated, & released from death, the Tathagata dwells with limitless awareness."


So I fail to see you explain what exactly is the awareness the Buddha refers to that is limitless, when totally dissociated from the fifth aggregate consciousness.

I fail to see how you can explain what the awareness the Buddha refers to that is limitless when totally dissociated from death.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

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Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:13 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:35 pm The sutta doesn't mention death. The Buddha is discussing how he was right there and then. Right there he was released from those things. Released from doesn't necessarily mean they have ceased. If you cease identifying with something you are no longer reckoned by it and so are released from being defined by it. Nothing in that means the thing you are no longer identifying with is no longer there.
Yes, it does mention death.

"Freed, dissociated, & released from consciousness, the Tathagata dwells with limitless awareness...
Freed, dissociated, & released from death, the Tathagata dwells with limitless awareness."


So I fail to see you explain what exactly is the awareness the Buddha refers to that is limitless, when totally dissociated from the fifth aggregate consciousness.

I fail to see how you can explain what the awareness the Buddha refers to that is limitless when totally dissociated from death.
If I remember correctly the sense in which i meant was that the Buddha was still very much alive when talking about these things, so it's not coming from a position of a consciousness that is existing after death. The heart being liberated from those things doesn't mean the heart permanently exists. By heart I mean the more emotional aspect of mind, in contrast to the more rational side of the mind (mano). Viññāṇa, citta and mano are all dependently originated in Buddhadhamma. In other systems of thought they are not.
citta2
neuter

I. Meaning
the heart (psychologically), i.e. the centre & focus of man’s emotional nature as well as that intellectual element which inheres in & accompanies its manifestations; i.e. thought. In this wise citta denotes both the agent & that which is enacted (see kamma II. introd.), for in Indian Psychology citta is the seat & organ of thought (cetasā cinteti; cp. Gr. φρήν, although on the whole it corresponds more to the Homeric χυμός). As in the verb (cinteti) there are two stems closely allied and almost inseparable in meaning (see § III.), viz. cit & cet (citta & cetas); cp. ye should restrain, curb, subdue citta by ceto, MN.i.120, MN.i.242 (cp attanā coday’ attānaṁ Dhp.379 f.); cetasā cittaṁ samannesati SN.i.194 (cp. cetasā cittaṁ samannesati SN.i.194). In their general use there is no distinction to be made between the two (see § III.)

The meaning of citta is best understood when explaining it by expressions familiar to us, as: with all my heart heart and soul; I have no heart to do it; blessed are the pure in heart; singleness of heart (cp. ekagga); all of which emphasize the emotional & conative side or “thought” more than its mental & rational side (for which see manas & viññāṇa). It may therefore be rendered by intention, impulse, design; mood, disposition state of mind, reaction to impressions. It is only in later scholastic lgg. that we are justified in applying the term “thought” in its technical sense. It needs to be pointed out, as complementary to this view, that citta nearly always occurs in the singular (= heart) & out of 150 cases in the Nikāyas only 3 times in the plural (= thoughts). The substantiality of citta (cetas is also evident from its connection with kamma (heart as source of action), kāma & the senses in general.; On the whole subject see Mrs. Rh. D. Buddh. Psych Eth. introd. & Bud. Psy. ch. II.
https://suttacentral.net/define/citta

What is the sutta saying then? That the liberated mind isn't affected by the āsavā. It is a way of talking about awakening, rather than talking about some real existent which always exists.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Mudryj »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:59 am The sutta seems to explicitly declare that the Buddha dwells with limitless awareness (I.e Nibbana) when free and 'dissociated' from the aggregates including the consciousness aggregate.


I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Campa, on the shore of Gaggara Lake. Then Ven. Bahuna went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, freed, dissociated, & released from how many things does the Tathagata dwell with limitless awareness?"

"Freed, dissociated, & released from ten things, Bahuna, the Tathagata dwells with limitless awareness. Which ten? Freed, dissociated, & released from form, the Tathagata dwells with limitless awareness. Freed, dissociated, & released from feeling... Freed, dissociated, & released from perception... Freed, dissociated, & released from fabrications... Freed, dissociated, & released from consciousness... Freed, dissociated, & released from birth... Freed, dissociated, & released from aging... Freed, dissociated, & released from death... Freed, dissociated, & released from stress... Freed, dissociated, & released from defilement, the Tathagata dwells with limitless awareness.

"Just as a red, blue, or white lotus born in the water and growing in the water, rises up above the water and stands with no water adhering to it, in the same way the Tathagata — freed, dissociated, & released from these ten things — dwells with limitless awareness."


https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an ... .than.html

The Buddha here explicitly draws equivalence with this limitless awareness as being the cessation of suffering, cessation of defilements, and cessation of consciousness or cognizance, and cessation of death.

This adds to the significant suttas and verses in the canon that do not draw equivalence with the consciousness aggregate and the mind base of the six sense bases, with the liberated awareness released;
that a much more nuanced approach is needed to understanding how the Buddha uses these terms in the Canon and his equating the goal with liberation of awareness.
The Tathagata is immeasurable, vast, as deep as the ocean. He is not limited by unlimited awareness. He is not limited by consciousness without support, he is not limited. He transcended all earthly and transcendent forms of the mind. Unhooked, he let go and transcended everything.

And you are trying to catch him in some kind of trap, to define him in some dimension, to identify him with some of the forms. Close it like a genie in a bottle and tame it to fulfill your desires and protect your passion of being.
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