Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by cappuccino »

Mudryj wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:37 pm The Tathagata … transcended everything.
He did not transcend the dimension of Nirvana
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

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cappuccino wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:50 pm
Mudryj wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:37 pm The Tathagata … transcended everything.
He did not transcend the dimension of Nirvana
He transcended all dimensions.
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

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Mudryj wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:44 pm He transcended all dimensions.
when you transcend the truth you don’t know truth
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

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cappuccino wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:46 pm
Mudryj wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:44 pm He transcended all dimensions.
when you transcend the truth you don’t know truth
When you transcend the truth, you don't cling to the truth (see MN1)
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by cappuccino »

Mudryj wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:50 pm When you transcend the truth, you don't cling to the truth (see MN1)
first you have to know the truth
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:13 pm
If I remember correctly the sense in which i meant was that the Buddha was still very much alive when talking about these things, so it's not coming from a position of a consciousness that is existing after death.
So you require a voice from the Buddha delivering a sermon after his parinibbana to show that consciousness without surface is the deathless liberated state?
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:13 pm Viññāṇa, citta and mano are all dependently originated in Buddhadhamma. In other systems of thought they are not.

What is the sutta saying then? That the liberated mind isn't affected by the āsavā. It is a way of talking about awakening, rather than talking about some real existent which always exists.

I am simply asking based on whatever sutta or abhidhamma analysis you want to do, what or how does the Buddha dwell with unlimited awareness that is totally disjoined from the consciousness aggregate? This sounds to me like unconditioned awareness, not dependently arisen awareness.
Mudryj wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:37 pm
The Tathagata is immeasurable, vast, as deep as the ocean. He is not limited by unlimited awareness. He is not limited by consciousness without support, he is not limited. He transcended all earthly and transcendent forms of the mind. Unhooked, he let go and transcended everything.

And you are trying to catch him in some kind of trap, to define him in some dimension, to identify him with some of the forms. Close it like a genie in a bottle and tame it to fulfill your desires and protect your passion of being.
Not sure where you are getting this from. I am pointing this out to dispute the tendency toward the annihilationist position in some Theravadins which equates liberation with simply cessation of the five aggregates. Clearly it is not. This sutta makes clear there is unlimited awareness disjoined from the 5 aggregates, and that the 5 aggregates should not be equated with the totality of what is.

Yes the Buddha transcended all forms of becoming. However giving it a name doesn't mean we place limits on it. I am not identifying him with any form. There are 33 synonyms for Nibbana in the Canon, and also passages referring to it as consciousness that doesn't land. This is a radically liberated and transformed consciousness without any support and freed from any limitations. It would be hard to imagine what it is like.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:23 pm ~
To clarify, I would like you to say how you believe the Buddha's statement on dwelling in limitless awareness that is totally disjoined from the 5 aggregates including the vinnana/consciousness aggregate, does not in effect declare an unsupported awareness that is outside the chain of dependent co-arising?
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:54 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:23 pm ~
To clarify, I would like you to say how you believe the Buddha's statement on dwelling in limitless awareness that is totally disjoined from the 5 aggregates including the vinnana/consciousness aggregate, does not in effect declare an unsupported awareness that is outside the chain of dependent co-arising?
It is a mind which is liberated from craving, clinging, identification and views including the views of existence and non-existence and everything in-between. That mind too cannot be said to exist or not-exist, because its a word and words cannot be said to really exist or not-exist. To you however, it always exists.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:58 am
It is a mind which is liberated from craving, clinging, identification and views including the views of existence and non-existence and everything in-between. That mind too cannot be said to exist or not-exist, because its a word and words cannot be said to exist or no-exist. To you however, it always exists.

You are playing semantic games here.
Let's get to the root issue and not engage in obscurations.

So let's say that I am being misled by my interpretation of the sutta.
Since the Buddha is making this limitless awareness sound an awful lot like nibbana.

He is saying that released from aging, illness, suffering and death the Tathagata dwells with unlimited awareness.

(According to you) I am now going towards what seems to be the clear but apparently wrong conclusion - that there is a signless, limitless concentration that the Buddha dwelled in that is not dependent upon the aggregates and is freed from all suffering.


The sutta states that this concentration is freed from defilements or asavas, so I agree with you there.

But how can this awareness concentration be beyond the five aggregates, if it is not in fact unsupported?

Ordinary mana, citta and vinnana is never disjoined from the consciousness aggregate.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:12 am
You are playing semantic games here.
Let's get to the root issue and not engage in obscurations.
My post was just old fashioned Prajñāpāramitā.
So let's say that I am being misled by my interpretation of the sutta.
Since the Buddha is making this limitless awareness sound an awful lot like nibbana.

He is saying that released from aging, illness, suffering and death the Tathagata dwells with unlimited awareness.
Being liberated from the āsavā there is no more future birth, and so not being born again there is no more death. Therefore, he is liberated from birth and death. His mind is then unlimited as he is no longer stuck on the aggregates via clinging. This however is still conventional speech. Citta at the time was a common concept. Ultimately there is no Buddha apart from the word who is not stuck, no mind which is liberated, no dukkha, no nibbāna apart from the word. Nibbāna is Saṃsāra correctly viewed and so ultimately one cannot speak of existing, not existing, both existing and not existing or neither. One cannot speak of arising, or ceasing, or dhammas because those do not apply. That is nibbāna.
The sutta states that this concentration is freed from defilements or asavas, so I agree with you there.

But how can this awareness concentration be beyond the five aggregates, if it is not in fact unsupported?

Ordinary mana, citta and vinnana is never disjoined from the consciousness aggregate.
Citta depends upon name & form. If the taints are present, a tainted citta will rise. If the taints are gone a non-tainted citta will arise. Citta however does not exist forever. It is like wisdom (paññā). Both arise and cease.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:27 am Nibbāna is Saṃsāra correctly viewed
This is Nagarjuna not Nikaya or Pali Buddhism

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:27 am Citta depends upon name & form. If the taints are present, a tainted citta will rise. If the taints are gone a non-tainted citta will arise. Citta however does not exist forever. It is like wisdom (paññā). Both arise and cease.
This sutta doesn't say only this though.

Let's frame it the other way:

If the Buddha was declaring a deathless unsupported awareness, freed (after parinibbana) from death, disjoined from the aggregates, how exactly would you expect it to be described differently from in this sutta?


It seems that no matter how he says it, you will try to impose an annihilationist (cessation of all consciousness in Nibbana) view even if the reverse is being spelled out for you.
And this is not a unique sutta there are parallels supporting my reading posted earlier in the thread which you also seem to need a lot of reaching to account for.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:51 am
This is Nagarjuna not Nikaya or Pali Buddhism
It's not Theravāda, no. Strangely it was the Abhihdhamma which brought me to Ven. Nāgārjuna. Regardless, you don't have to be a Mahāyānist to agree with the Mūlamadhyamakakārikā as being the correct interpretation of the Dhamma. Ven. Nāgārjuna made use of what sutras he had access to, rather than relying upon Mahāyāna texts. Nibbāna is the highest truth, and so ultimately arising and ceasing, existence and non-existence etc do not apply.
This sutta doesn't say only this though.
No. It says he has unlimited awareness due to being liberated from a list of limitations.
Let's frame it the other way:

If the Buddha was declaring a deathless unsupported awareness, freed (after parinibbana) from death, disjoined from the aggregates, how exactly would you expect it to be described differently from in this sutta?
I wouldn't expect to find such a thing in this sutta. I would expect to find it in suttas where the Buddha is asked what happens to an awakened one after death. There I would expect him to answer in the affirmative when asked if said person exists. What we find is him saying that existence doesn't apply anymore than non-existence does.
It seems that no matter how he says it, you will try to impose an annihilationist (cessation of all consciousness in Nibbana) view even if the reverse is being spelled out for you.
An annihilationist thinks that there is existence now and later there is non-existence. I have been arguing that ultimately existence and non-existence do not apply. How you think those two things are equivalent is beyond me. Ultimately I do not say that nibbāna is non-existence. I do not say that nibbāna is existence. I do not say that citta exists. I do not say it does not exist. What is telling though is your view that if consciousness ceases then it is annihilation. This is simply another way of you saying that you think consciousness is the self.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:05 am
It's not Theravāda, no. Strangely it was the Abhihdhamma which brought me to Ven. Nāgārjuna. Regardless, you don't have to be a Mahāyānist to agree with the Mūlamadhyamakakārikā as being the correct interpretation of the Dhamma. Ven. Nāgārjuna made use of what sutras he had access to, rather than relying upon Mahāyāna texts. Nibbāna is the highest truth, and so ultimately arising and ceasing, existence and non-existence etc do not apply.
So you've gone from one wrong teaching to another.

It seems also you have been hiding for some time that you adhere to Nagarjuna.
Either way, saying "Nibbana is Samsara" is totally wrong and not aligned with Pali Buddhism or what the Buddha taught.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:05 am I would expect to find it in suttas where the Buddha is asked what happens to an awakened one after death. There I would expect him to answer in the affirmative when asked if said person exists. What we find is him saying that existence doesn't apply anymore than non-existence does.
No, we wouldn't expect him to say that since that would simply be the atman doctrine of an unchanging self which is contradicted by the change of the aggregates.

An identityless, nonadhering field of consciousness that is 'deep, immeasurable like the ocean' and disjoined from the five aggregates is extremely close to how it would be described. Coincidently he describes liberation in that way

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:05 am
An annihilationist thinks that there is existence now and later there is non-existence. I have been arguing that ultimately existence and non-existence do not apply. How you think those two things are equivalent is beyond me. Ultimately I do not say that nibbāna is non-existence. I do not say that nibbāna is existence. I do not say that citta exists. I do not say it does not exist. What is telling though is your view that if consciousness ceases then it is annihilation. This is simply another way of you saying that you think consciousness is the self.
If the Buddha supported your view he wouldn't have called Nibbana an unmade ayatana or dimension/sphere to be known.
He would have just said liberation and cessation is the aggregates ceasing and that's all. Simple, no confusion.

There are many types of consciousness arising and ceasing all the time. I don't identify with them. I call the witnessing aspect protoconsciouseness and I agree with people like Ven.Sumedho who have spent a lifetime clearing the way to it.

Your speculative views which have no real experience whatsoever to back them up, rely on totally reinterpreting or dismissing many Pali suttas including this one, dismissing experiences of many highly advanced meditators like Thai Forrest monks, and conceptualizing abhidamma theory and appealing to Nagarjuna which has further confused you, and by which you think by logical inference you can 'prove' what the Buddha taught.

On top of this there is a happy with yourself smug sense in doing this even though the Buddha warned against relying on reasoned cognitation in trying to find the dhamma.

Stop reading abhidhamma and Nagarjuna and meditate much much more according to teachers like Ajahn Sumedho would my advise.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Coëmgenu »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:20 amStop reading abhidhamma and Nagarjuna and meditate much much more according to teachers like Ajahn Sumedho would my advise.
TBH, rather than "like Ajahn Sumedho," your Dharma is more like the Śūraṅgamasūtra IMO:
...there are fundamentally two kinds of mind. First, the ordinary quotidian mind of which we are aware and which is entangled, lifetime after lifetime, in the snare of illusory perceptions and random thoughts; and second, the everlasting true mind, which is our real nature, and which is the state of the Buddha. Ananda, what are the two fundamentals? The first is the mind that is the basis of death and rebirth and that has continued for the entirety of time, which has no beginning. This mind is dependent upon perceived objects, and it is this that you and all beings make use of and that each of you consider to be your own nature. The second fundamental is enlightenment, which has no beginning; it is the original and pure essence of Nirvana.
Compare this was Ven Sumedho:
Maybe you will form some idea that consciousness is a condition which is somehow above all other conditions and can know those other conditions as conditions…..If you trust in awareness, you realize that consciousness is a natural state. When a baby is born it is a conscious being; it is a human body that is conscious. Consciousness, then, is natural and cannot be culturally perverted by anything. And that which is natural – that which is according to the natural law – is what we mean by ‘dhamma’. We are experiencing consciousness through separate forms. We each experience through ‘this’ body and the kamma of ‘this being here’. If we recognize pure consciousness, we then have a perspective on the limitations and conditions of the physical body and the emotional habits we have, the memories we have, and the ‘self’. And we realize that consciousness has no personal quality. We create the personal, and the consciousness then combines with the sense of being a person. If we let go of ‘the person’, there is just pure consciousness which has no boundaries. And this is immeasurable.
Your argumentation seems closer to the "two minds" of the first quotation.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Bahuna Sutta: Limitless awareness dissociated from the consciousness aggregate is the cessation of suffering

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:26 am ~
I broadly agree with both the above and see them as basically equivalent.
I also see passages in the Canon that support them.

So does that make me a Theravada heretic/closet Mahayanist with an Arahant ideal?

I believe both are aligned with the Buddhas teaching in the Nikayas.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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