Then Four become Three

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Then Four become Three

Post by Ceisiwr »

IN SN 41.7 we are told there are 4 roads to nibbāna, which differ in meaning and phrasing.
It’s when a mendicant meditates spreading a heart full of love to one direction, and to the second, and to the third, and to the fourth. In the same way above, below, across, everywhere, all around, they spread a heart full of love to the whole world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will. They meditate spreading a heart full of compassion … They meditate spreading a heart full of rejoicing … They meditate spreading a heart full of equanimity to one direction, and to the second, and to the third, and to the fourth. In the same way above, below, across, everywhere, all around, they spread a heart full of equanimity to the whole world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will. This is called the limitless release of the heart.

And what is the release of the heart through nothingness? It’s when a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing at all’, enters and remains in the dimension of nothingness. This is called the release of the heart through nothingness.

And what is the release of the heart through emptiness? It’s when a mendicant has gone to a wilderness, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, and reflects like this: ‘This is empty of a self or what belongs to a self.’ This is called the release of the heart through emptiness.

And what is the signless heart’s release? It’s when a mendicant, not focusing on any signs, enters and remains in the signless immersion of the heart. This is called the signless release of the heart.
https://suttacentral.net/sn41.7/en/sujato

I take this to mean that they are 4 distinct meditation exercises (quite advanced ones). Then we are told there is a way in which they mean the same thing but differ only in the phrasing.
Greed, hate, and delusion are makers of limits. A mendicant who has ended the defilements has given these up, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, and obliterated them, so they are unable to arise in the future. The unshakable release of the heart is said to be the best kind of limitless release of the heart. That unshakable release of the heart is empty of greed, hate, and delusion.

Greed is something, hate is something, and delusion is something. A mendicant who has ended the defilements has given these up, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, and obliterated them, so they are unable to arise in the future. The unshakable release of the heart is said to be the best kind of release of the heart through nothingness. That unshakable release of the heart is empty of greed, hate, and delusion.

Greed, hate, and delusion are makers of signs. A mendicant who has ended the defilements has given these up, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, and obliterated them, so they are unable to arise in the future. The unshakable release of the heart is said to be the best kind of signless release of the heart. That unshakable release of the heart is empty of greed, hate, and delusion.
I take this to mean that even thought they are distinct meditations they all result in the extinction of greed, hatred and delusion. So far so good, but notice what has happened. The emptiness meditation seems to have disappeared, or has it? Could it be that the former emptiness meditation, regarding the emptiness of the self, is included here by why of when there is a notion of a self then there is hate, jealously, things to be desired and signs and so when there is no notion of a self then there is no more hate etc, no more "something" to be desired and no more "signs"? Another way of putting it is that when there is a self then there are people to hate, things to get and sense object "out there" in relation to "me". This would then mean that if someone approaches nibbāna by way of nothingness, then they also become free of atta. Likewise, if someone approaches nibbāna by way of emptiness of self then they are also free from hate, sense desire and notions of sense objects. This does of course lend itself to a Perfection of Wisdom type view, but what do people think? How do you understand the sutta here? Why does 4 become 3 when discussing how they are the of the same meaning but simply worded differently?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
2600htz
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Re: Then Four become Three

Post by 2600htz »

Hi:

I would say the difference here is that "emptiness" is not really a jhana, or some inmaterial attainment, like the rest of the list.

Emptiness is a charasteristic of states. For example the first jhana is empty of hindrances. The second jhana is empty of others, etc. And you can reflect on things not being there, or not being relative to a "self".

Maybe the sutta was considering someone who is already an arahant and goes to a place to reflect and have the perception that everything is empty of a self. Thats why stating the unshakable release of the heart through emptiness would be redundant.

Regards.
waryoffolly
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Re: Then Four become Three

Post by waryoffolly »

There is an agama parallel, but DeepL's translation is not easy to follow. This could potentially just be a transmission error-which is why I'd like to see a better translation of the agama to compare. (Maybe for example the emptiness meditation described here was originally that of an arahant examining the emptiness of greed/hatred/delusion in their mind, and it got replaced by a pericope?)

Anyways your explanation is an interesting one regardless. No greed/hatred/delusion means no fabrication of a self so it seems like a valid way to explain why there are only three mentioned at the end.

I find it really interesting how the brahma vihara's here strongly are implied to be a complete path (or at least a valid option for noble right samadhi with its support and requisites) on their own-which matches the fact that they show up in the list of meditations in the bojjhanga samyutta as leading to complete liberation when developed along with all seven bojjhangas (and supported by dispassion, and abandonment). Sometimes I hear people say that brahma viharas are only meant to lead to higher rebirths.
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Nicolas
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Re: Then Four become Three

Post by Nicolas »

My immediate reaction is to think of an omission or addition.

(Otherwise, MN 97 seems to indicate that the brahmaviharas alone are not sufficient to realize Nibbana. My understanding is that they need right view & vipassana as a support for them to be a basis for sammasamadhi.)
waryoffolly
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Re: Then Four become Three

Post by waryoffolly »

Nicolas wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:24 am (Otherwise, MN 97 seems to indicate that the brahmaviharas alone are not sufficient to realize Nibbana. My understanding is that they need right view & vipassana as a support for them to be a basis for sammasamadhi.)
Saying 'alone' in my previous post probably was misleading. Of course they would require right view as well and vipassana support. These qualities would be found in the dhamma-vicaya bojjhanga which the brahma viharas must be developed alongside to count as samma samadhi. My point was that they can be used as (the end of) a complete path (when properly developed with all bojjhanga factors) like other meditation subjects such as anapanasati, and aren't only for wholeseome rebirth.
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Nicolas
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Re: Then Four become Three

Post by Nicolas »

Understood & agreed :toast:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Then Four become Three

Post by Ceisiwr »

waryoffolly wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:25 am There is an agama parallel, but DeepL's translation is not easy to follow. This could potentially just be a transmission error-which is why I'd like to see a better translation of the agama to compare. (Maybe for example the emptiness meditation described here was originally that of an arahant examining the emptiness of greed/hatred/delusion in their mind, and it got replaced by a pericope?)

Anyways your explanation is an interesting one regardless. No greed/hatred/delusion means no fabrication of a self so it seems like a valid way to explain why there are only three mentioned at the end.

I find it really interesting how the brahma vihara's here strongly are implied to be a complete path (or at least a valid option for noble right samadhi with its support and requisites) on their own-which matches the fact that they show up in the list of meditations in the bojjhanga samyutta as leading to complete liberation when developed along with all seven bojjhangas (and supported by dispassion, and abandonment). Sometimes I hear people say that brahma viharas are only meant to lead to higher rebirths.
Yes, I agree that awakening can occur with the brahmavihārās. No mindfulness of breathing needed there. As with mindfulness of breathing the 4 Jhāna and the formless can be developed out of them.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Mr. Seek
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Re: Then Four become Three

Post by Mr. Seek »

Reading the title i thought we're gonna discuss some obscure christian/gnostic simile
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Then Four become Three

Post by Coëmgenu »

It reminded me of an old Spice Girls song that came out when I was five about two becoming one.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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nirodh27
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Re: Then Four become Three

Post by nirodh27 »

waryoffolly wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:25 am There is an agama parallel, but DeepL's translation is not easy to follow.
Hi waryoffolly,

This is a great resource. Thanks!!!!

It seems the parallel is very similar in the first part with what it looks like telling the same four meditations, while the second part is way more succint and presents only one conclusion which simply states that the non-greedy one has no limit (which recalls the Bahuna sutta of another recent topic, "his mind free of limits", cetasā viharati) and something like "no appearance". The non-critic (which is something that points to someone with realization) is empty of the usual things greed, aversion, delusion and I think of self and what belongs to self maybe.

答言:「尊者!謂貪有量,若無諍者第一無量,謂貪者是有相,恚、癡者是有相,無諍者是無相。貪者是所有,恚、癡者是所有,無諍者是無所有。復次,無諍者空,於貪空,於恚、癡空,常住不變易空,非我、非我所,是名法一義種種味。」

I said, "Your Holiness! If the one who is greedy has a quantity (limit? ), if the one who is not critical has no quantity (limit, sometimes deepl also translates as infinite), then the one who is greedy has an appearance, the one who is ruthless has an appearance, and the one who is not critical has no appearance. The covetous are all, the ruthless are all, the uncritical are none. And again, the non-critic is empty, empty of greed, empty of rage, empty of inflexibility (delusion/ignorance?), empty of non-self (Self) and non-self (what belongs?).

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

So I would say that the first part seems to get a green light, the second part is risky of being a later addition or even an addition with an omission.

Btw great resource, Thanks a lot waryoffolly.

It would be great if a chinese expert could intervene about SA 567. It seems a very important and succint Dhamma passage in the last part and it is unfortunate that it is not translated from an expert.
josaphatbarlaam
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Re: Then Four become Three

Post by josaphatbarlaam »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:32 pm
......

And what is the signless heart’s release? It’s when a mendicant, not focusing on any signs, enters and remains in the signless immersion of the heart. This is called the signless release of the heart.
https://suttacentral.net/sn41.7/en/sujato
This brings up a different question to me. What is the heart?
Last edited by josaphatbarlaam on Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Then Four become Three

Post by Ceisiwr »

josaphatbarlaam wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:31 pm
This brings up a different question to me. What is the heart?
The translator has translated “citta” as “heart”. Roughly it’s the aspect of the mind that deals with the more deeply emotive side of experience. By the way, could your edit your post? It makes for awful reading to quote an entire post. Thank you.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Then Four become Three

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:27 am It reminded me of an old Spice Girls song that came out when I was five about two becoming one.
:jumping:

What are your thoughts on what the sutta is trying to say?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
josaphatbarlaam
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Re: Then Four become Three

Post by josaphatbarlaam »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:35 pm
josaphatbarlaam wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:31 pm
This brings up a different question to me. What is the heart?
The translator has translated “citta” as “heart”.
This is interesting....because it says about nothingness:
And what is the release of the heart through nothingness? It’s when a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing at all’, enters and remains in the dimension of nothingness. This is called the release of the heart through nothingness.
So if the mendicant enters and abides in nothingness where "there is nothing at all" but this is "the release of the heart/citta through nothingness" then the heart/citta can exist in nothingness where everything is nothingness such that everything but the heart is nothingness. Its easy to see then where some of the Thai Forest folk get their eternal citta or "citta never dies" theory.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Then Four become Three

Post by Ceisiwr »

josaphatbarlaam wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:26 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:35 pm
josaphatbarlaam wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:31 pm
This brings up a different question to me. What is the heart?
The translator has translated “citta” as “heart”.
This is interesting....because it says about nothingness:
And what is the release of the heart through nothingness? It’s when a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing at all’, enters and remains in the dimension of nothingness. This is called the release of the heart through nothingness.
So if the mendicant enters and abides in nothingness where "there is nothing at all" but this is "the release of the heart/citta through nothingness" then the heart/citta can exist in nothingness where everything is nothingness such that everything but the heart is nothingness. Its easy to see then where some of the Thai Forest folk get their eternal citta or "citta never dies" theory.
Nothingness doesn't mean literally nothing. It means there is nothing worth having. It's a view of disinterest and disillusionment with the world, which is why you can only get there with developed equanimity.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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