You ask a good question here. One sutta that's been intriguing me lately is MN 127, Anuruddhasutta. In it, Anuruddha explains (amongst other things) why some devas have "pure" vs "corrupted" radiance, despite being born in the same order of devas. He says that monks who meditate w/ some sloth and torpor and/or restlessness and remorse will be reborn as a deva of corrupted radiance. By contrast, a monk without s&t and r&r are reborn as a deva of pure radiance.frank k wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:34 amThat's a very interesting idea, worthy of starting a separate thread to collect references on that.TheSynergist wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:38 pm ...
It seems to me that the gist of the suttas suggests that there is a substantial gap between 1st and 2nd Jhana. Evidence:
- The leader of the Jains believed in 1st Jhana, but not second — SN 41.8
- AN 3.94 mentions how someone who has already achieved stream entry can become an anagami by dying in the 1st Jhana. But it doesn't say anything about the other Jhanas….perhaps this is a hint that they were substantially harder to obtain than the 1st?
- SN 55.54 says that a married stream winner can become fully liberated at death by going through the Deva realms, but doesn't go further than the Brahma realm, which is usually associated with 1st Jhana. There's nothing about the devas of streaming radiance, etc. above the Brahma realm. Could it be that it was considered unrealistic to expect a married layperson to go beyond first Jhana?
There is a different skill set to perform 1st jhana versus second jhana. To progress from 2nd jhana through 4th, you're using the same skill set, it's about charging up the jhana battery and opening up energy channels. The mental joy of piti one naturally discards as one becomes normalized and find nothing novel or exotic about jhanic bliss. Just like scions of billionaires don't value money and possessions because it's as common as breathing air for them and they have unlimited supply.
The difficulty in really assessing the difference between skill level required between first and second jhana, is that the 4 jhana formula is inherently not an exact science, it's meant to show the general differences between stages of progress in samadhi.
For example, someone with a baseline of 4th jhana proficiency engaging in vitakka and vicara from 4th jhana, would you classify that as an impure 4th jhana with V&V, or a first jhana because of the presence of V&V? It wouldn't quite qualify as first jhana because there is just a-dukkham-a-sukham neutral sensation (instead of sukha indriya based on viveka).
But a married lay person for example who does a 3 month retreat and is able to charge up the jhana battery from maintaining celibacy and meditating frequently, they might briefly have states of 2nd jhana or higher even though their baseline normal is first jhana. They wouldn't accumulate enough experience in 2nd jhana and higher to really make the distinctions and clearly know the differences.
I find this interesting because, while not explicitly stated in MN 127, it's mentioned elsewhere that rebirth as a radiant deva is associated with practicing 2nd Jhana. In other words, Anuruddha's teaching implies that 2nd Jhana can still be corrupted by the hindrances, which normally I assume are already abandoned with 1st Jhana. This is similar to the dilemma you said about a state with v&v (which would make it 1st jhana), but without dukkha and without sukkha and piti (making it 4th).
I guess this is the advantage to the "fractal" model of Jhana, where there are Jhanas within Jhanas. So your proposed Jhana would be a 1st Jhana within 4th (or vice versa?).