AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

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TheSynergist
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by TheSynergist »

frank k wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:34 am
TheSynergist wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:38 pm ...
It seems to me that the gist of the suttas suggests that there is a substantial gap between 1st and 2nd Jhana. Evidence:
- The leader of the Jains believed in 1st Jhana, but not second — SN 41.8
- AN 3.94 mentions how someone who has already achieved stream entry can become an anagami by dying in the 1st Jhana. But it doesn't say anything about the other Jhanas….perhaps this is a hint that they were substantially harder to obtain than the 1st?
- SN 55.54 says that a married stream winner can become fully liberated at death by going through the Deva realms, but doesn't go further than the Brahma realm, which is usually associated with 1st Jhana. There's nothing about the devas of streaming radiance, etc. above the Brahma realm. Could it be that it was considered unrealistic to expect a married layperson to go beyond first Jhana?
That's a very interesting idea, worthy of starting a separate thread to collect references on that.

There is a different skill set to perform 1st jhana versus second jhana. To progress from 2nd jhana through 4th, you're using the same skill set, it's about charging up the jhana battery and opening up energy channels. The mental joy of piti one naturally discards as one becomes normalized and find nothing novel or exotic about jhanic bliss. Just like scions of billionaires don't value money and possessions because it's as common as breathing air for them and they have unlimited supply.

The difficulty in really assessing the difference between skill level required between first and second jhana, is that the 4 jhana formula is inherently not an exact science, it's meant to show the general differences between stages of progress in samadhi.
For example, someone with a baseline of 4th jhana proficiency engaging in vitakka and vicara from 4th jhana, would you classify that as an impure 4th jhana with V&V, or a first jhana because of the presence of V&V? It wouldn't quite qualify as first jhana because there is just a-dukkham-a-sukham neutral sensation (instead of sukha indriya based on viveka).

But a married lay person for example who does a 3 month retreat and is able to charge up the jhana battery from maintaining celibacy and meditating frequently, they might briefly have states of 2nd jhana or higher even though their baseline normal is first jhana. They wouldn't accumulate enough experience in 2nd jhana and higher to really make the distinctions and clearly know the differences.
You ask a good question here. One sutta that's been intriguing me lately is MN 127, Anuruddhasutta. In it, Anuruddha explains (amongst other things) why some devas have "pure" vs "corrupted" radiance, despite being born in the same order of devas. He says that monks who meditate w/ some sloth and torpor and/or restlessness and remorse will be reborn as a deva of corrupted radiance. By contrast, a monk without s&t and r&r are reborn as a deva of pure radiance.

I find this interesting because, while not explicitly stated in MN 127, it's mentioned elsewhere that rebirth as a radiant deva is associated with practicing 2nd Jhana. In other words, Anuruddha's teaching implies that 2nd Jhana can still be corrupted by the hindrances, which normally I assume are already abandoned with 1st Jhana. This is similar to the dilemma you said about a state with v&v (which would make it 1st jhana), but without dukkha and without sukkha and piti (making it 4th).

I guess this is the advantage to the "fractal" model of Jhana, where there are Jhanas within Jhanas. So your proposed Jhana would be a 1st Jhana within 4th (or vice versa?).
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by frank k »

TheSynergist wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:40 pm ...
I guess this is the advantage to the "fractal" model of Jhana, where there are Jhanas within Jhanas. So your proposed Jhana would be a 1st Jhana within 4th (or vice versa?).
I don't know. I'm pointing out the limitation of using the Buddha's outline of 4 stages of samadhi in the 4 jhana formula, to try to match it up with exact states in actual practice in real scenarios.

imperturbable (anenja) version of 4th jhana would probably be the most accurate and least ambiguous, to show vitakka is not a problem for someone who already mastered avitakka samadhi.
4 iddipada would work too (vimamsa could perform functions of vitkakka), but if you say someone has iddhipada, just like Anuruddha saying satipatthana is the reason he mastered the 6 higher knowledges and psychic power, that doesn't distinguish between it between a trainee who is developing iddhipada but does not have those accomplishments yet.
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by PeterC86 »

frank k wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:17 pm http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... uddha.html

how vitakka thoughts decompose easily into perceptions that carry into second jhana and beyond
I don't see this belonging to the Pali Canon; I see someone's interpretation of what might be, and what might not be.
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by Sam Vara »

PeterC86 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:39 pm
frank k wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:17 pm http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... uddha.html

how vitakka thoughts decompose easily into perceptions that carry into second jhana and beyond
I don't see this belonging to the Pali Canon; I see someone's interpretation of what might be, and what might not be.
You seem to be developing a little theme, Peter. There's no requirement here that something should belong to the Pali Canon; merely that it refers to it.
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by PeterC86 »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:11 pm You seem to be developing a little theme, Peter. There's no requirement here that something should belong to the Pali Canon; merely that it refers to it.
Ah okay, well in that case, that is too wide of a scope for me, and I am done here. Also because the suttas are not in accordance with each other, which automatically results in conflicts and confusion as to what the actual teaching of the Buddha is. But then someone would say, no you just don't understand them, you need to practice and study more...

Well, I wish you all good luck with that.
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by Sam Vara »

PeterC86 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:57 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:11 pm You seem to be developing a little theme, Peter. There's no requirement here that something should belong to the Pali Canon; merely that it refers to it.
Ah okay, well in that case, that is too wide of a scope for me, and I am done here. Also because the suttas are not in accordance with each other, which automatically results in conflicts and confusion as to what the actual teaching of the Buddha is. But then someone would say, no you just don't understand them, you need to practice and study more...

Well, I wish you all good luck with that.
Quite a few points here. The forum has always been for discussing Theravada Buddhism. That includes the actual Canon, but also interpretations of the Canon, and thoughts about the practice in general. Your book was welcome here because it was about Buddhism, but it didn't "belong to the Canon", did it?

And the suttas not being in accordance with each other. Why is that problematic? That's precisely within the scope of discussions on this forum.

And people telling you to practice and study more. The problem with that is...?
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by TheSynergist »

frank k wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:44 am
TheSynergist wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:40 pm ...
I guess this is the advantage to the "fractal" model of Jhana, where there are Jhanas within Jhanas. So your proposed Jhana would be a 1st Jhana within 4th (or vice versa?).
I don't know. I'm pointing out the limitation of using the Buddha's outline of 4 stages of samadhi in the 4 jhana formula, to try to match it up with exact states in actual practice in real scenarios.

imperturbable (anenja) version of 4th jhana would probably be the most accurate and least ambiguous, to show vitakka is not a problem for someone who already mastered avitakka samadhi.
4 iddipada would work too (vimamsa could perform functions of vitkakka), but if you say someone has iddhipada, just like Anuruddha saying satipatthana is the reason he mastered the 6 higher knowledges and psychic power, that doesn't distinguish between it between a trainee who is developing iddhipada but does not have those accomplishments yet.
Good points. I have noticed (while reading SN 51) how the iddhipadas offer a framework for samadhi that involves more room for "thinking." It's noteworthy that Ve. Moggallana was an Iddhi master, yet seemed to struggle with his Jhanas (in SN 40:1-9).
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by PeterC86 »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:12 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:57 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:11 pm You seem to be developing a little theme, Peter. There's no requirement here that something should belong to the Pali Canon; merely that it refers to it.
Ah okay, well in that case, that is too wide of a scope for me, and I am done here. Also because the suttas are not in accordance with each other, which automatically results in conflicts and confusion as to what the actual teaching of the Buddha is. But then someone would say, no you just don't understand them, you need to practice and study more...

Well, I wish you all good luck with that.
Quite a few points here. The forum has always been for discussing Theravada Buddhism. That includes the actual Canon, but also interpretations of the Canon, and thoughts about the practice in general. Your book was welcome here because it was about Buddhism, but it didn't "belong to the Canon", did it?
I didn't know that the scope of the General Theravada Discussion subforum was that, but I posted the book in the Connections to other Paths subforum.
And the suttas not being in accordance with each other. Why is that problematic? That's precisely within the scope of discussions on this forum.
Ah what should or can I tell you that you will understand but not be provoked by? I see the state of the Dhamma, and see that it is all scrambled, split up in different sects, Nibbana as some far distant memory, nobody able to understand Dependent Origination, and I am trying real hard to show where this all comes from, but I am unable to help anyone. That is pretty difficult for me. But I somehow keep trying to make this all clear to Buddhadhamma followers, although I know exactly how it comes that I am unable to. And it is wearing me down, because I am standing here alone, seeing everybody chase a path without an end.. but unable to reach them. And all of them thinking I am the deluded one.. because the Buddha's teaching got misunderstood, which ended up in the Pali Canon, which is why we are here.
And people telling you to practice and study more. The problem with that is...?
What practice would make dependent origination clear to anyone?

Everybody on this forum:

How is it that we are not in Nibbana? Ignorance!

How will we get there? Abandoning desire!

........

Up and down on the Merry-Go-Round.....

:toilet:
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by Sam Vara »

PeterC86 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:43 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:12 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:57 pm

Ah okay, well in that case, that is too wide of a scope for me, and I am done here. Also because the suttas are not in accordance with each other, which automatically results in conflicts and confusion as to what the actual teaching of the Buddha is. But then someone would say, no you just don't understand them, you need to practice and study more...

Well, I wish you all good luck with that.
Quite a few points here. The forum has always been for discussing Theravada Buddhism. That includes the actual Canon, but also interpretations of the Canon, and thoughts about the practice in general. Your book was welcome here because it was about Buddhism, but it didn't "belong to the Canon", did it?
I didn't know that the scope of the General Theravada Discussion subforum was that, but I posted the book in the Connections to other Paths subforum.
I meant in general terms. You could always ask, or if things get posted in the wrong sections they can be easily moved. It's not a problem.
Ah what should or can I tell you that you will understand but not be provoked by?
That's for you to decide, and to allow other posters to take responsibility for being provoked.
I see the state of the Dhamma, and see that it is all scrambled, split up in different sects, Nibbana as some far distant memory, nobody able to understand Dependent Origination, and I am trying real hard to show where this all comes from, but I am unable to help anyone. That is pretty difficult for me. But I somehow keep trying to make this all clear to Buddhadhamma followers, although I know exactly how it comes that I am unable to. And it is wearing me down, because I am standing here alone, seeing everybody chase a path without an end.. but unable to reach them. And all of them thinking I am the deluded one.. because the Buddha's teaching got misunderstood, which ended up in the Pali Canon, which is why we are here.
Well, you might be deluded, or you might not. But neither of those possibilities preclude discussion about the points raised on here. Perhaps, if it is wearing you down, you might want to consider a temporary break from posting. And in any case, if you think that the Pali Canon results from a misunderstanding of what the Buddha taught, that raises the fairly obvious question of how you know what the Buddha taught. Did he tell you directly so that you didn't have to check your insights against the Tipitaka? How would you verify that your insights are the same as the Buddha's, or that you are indeed even talking about the same things?

And on a practical level, this is a forum where a lot of people will have a very high opinion of the Pali Canon. They come here for that reason! If you set out to prove that the Canon is based on a misunderstanding, you can expect a robust response from some quarters. Maybe that's what is wearing you down?
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by PeterC86 »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:37 pm Well, you might be deluded, or you might not. But neither of those possibilities preclude discussion about the points raised on here. Perhaps, if it is wearing you down, you might want to consider a temporary break from posting. And in any case, if you think that the Pali Canon results from a misunderstanding of what the Buddha taught, that raises the fairly obvious question of how you know what the Buddha taught. Did he tell you directly so that you didn't have to check your insights against the Tipitaka? How would you verify that your insights are the same as the Buddha's, or that you are indeed even talking about the same things?

Indeed, now you understand my inability to help anyone. Even if I explained it in full, as I have tried on many occasions, lastly here viewtopic.php?p=650128#p650128 people will always stick to the N8P, because that is what they hold to be true, even if I explain an obvious dichotomy, because I have no authority. So everything I say will be refuted with; no that is not what the N8P teaches. Yes of course, because I am explaining its inapplicability to understand DO. But indeed I have no authority, as I don't follow the N8P, so I will never be seen as authoritive by dedicated followers of the N8P. So it doesn't matter how good I explain it, it will not get through.

No need to get into this furter here, because I don't want to hijack this topic.
And on a practical level, this is a forum where a lot of people will have a very high opinion of the Pali Canon. They come here for that reason! If you set out to prove that the Canon is based on a misunderstanding, you can expect a robust response from some quarters. Maybe that's what is wearing you down?
Nah I am merely saying that different elements are contradictory, but these make up the core of the Pali Canon. So yeah I almost only get resistance.

Everything I just made clear to you is wearing me down, I will see what the future has in store for me.

Thank you for listening, and responding, I wish you all the best in what you pursue.
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by josaphatbarlaam »

PeterC86 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:21 pm Nah I am merely saying that different elements are contradictory, but these make up the core of the Pali Canon. So yeah I almost only get resistance.
I can understand the perspective of someone saying the Pali canon is contradictory and trying to widdle it down to what makes the most sense in there. What I can't understand is someone identifying dependent origination according to the misinterpretation that its a theory of everything (rather than of how/why rebirth happens) as the thing that makes the most sense. I would more understand those who throw DO out as the baby with the bathwater because of how much this misunderstanding is being pushed, than understand someone who throws out everything but this misunderstanding of DO.
PeterC86 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:21 pmYes of course, because I am explaining its inapplicability to understand DO. But indeed I have no authority, as I don't follow the N8P, so I will never be seen as authoritive by dedicated followers of the N8P. So it doesn't matter how good I explain it, it will not get through.
You have it completely backwards. DO is there to help explain N8P; N8P is not there to explain DO. DO is explaining that because you are still ignorant of 4NT you still get reborn, therefore follow N8P until that ignorance is all gone, but removal of that ignorance is also removal of lust, as both 4NT and N8P explain, and that is how one breaks free of rebirth. DO is only explanation of why/how rebirth. But you have it as theory of everything or quantum mexhanics or something, and are disappointed that 4NT and N8P aren't there to explain quantume mechanics or the big bang.
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by frank k »

TheSynergist wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:59 pm ..." It's noteworthy that Ve. Moggallana was an Iddhi master, yet seemed to struggle with his Jhanas (in SN 40:1-9).
'struggle' is relative. Sariputta and moggallana both attained arahantship in 7 or 14 days after meeting the buddha.

also, Buddha also 'struggled' with purifying the jhanas described on AN 9.

So really we can't read too much into what 'struggle' is.
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by TheSynergist »

frank k wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:28 am
TheSynergist wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:59 pm ..." It's noteworthy that Ve. Moggallana was an Iddhi master, yet seemed to struggle with his Jhanas (in SN 40:1-9).
'struggle' is relative. Sariputta and moggallana both attained arahantship in 7 or 14 days after meeting the buddha.

also, Buddha also 'struggled' with purifying the jhanas described on AN 9.

So really we can't read too much into what 'struggle' is.
What I meant is that he seemed to struggle more than Ven. Sāriputta, if you compare his SN verses at SN 40 to Sariputta's at SN 48. Also see Ud 4.4, which suggests he didn't have the depth of absorption that Ven. Sairputta.

I've noticed that a lot of people assume that Moggallāna must have been especially good at Jhana due to his powers, or that Sariputta was too intellectual to have deep Jhana, but that doesn't actually seem to be supported by the nikayas.
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

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josaphatbarlaam wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:39 pm DO is there to help explain N8P; N8P is not there to explain DO. DO is explaining that because you are still ignorant of 4NT you still get reborn, therefore follow N8P until that ignorance is all gone, but removal of that ignorance is also removal of lust, as both 4NT and N8P explain, and that is how one breaks free of rebirth. DO is only explanation of why/how rebirth. But you have it as theory of everything or quantum mexhanics or something, and are disappointed that 4NT and N8P aren't there to explain quantume mechanics or the big bang.
:goodpost:


I also think it's a mistake, to think that Buddha tried to explain the whole fabric of reality, like a physician. He cared about liberation, not onthology and systems. So he explained processes of craving and indentificating with things, that lead to suffery and rebirth.

There is this nice story about "handfull of leaves", that suggests he knew much more than he said in suttas, but decided it's irrelevant for us. Plus many suttas whch warn against pointless thirst for knowledge, answers and wievs, about shape of universe, it's beginnings, etc.

Like the simile of arrow and the wound.
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by BrokenBones »

josaphatbarlaam wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:25 pm
frank k wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:17 pm http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... uddha.html

how vitakka thoughts decompose easily into perceptions that carry into second jhana and beyond
Now this is very interesting. It explains how Buddha fell into jhana as a kid under the rose-apple tree. No complex doctrine necessary, just having these mindsets.
One wonders if the so called 'Beginners Luck' can be explained here.

A newbie with reasonable virtue, not having been indoctrinated too heavily with the demand to 'CONCENTRATE' and not honing their ability to focus on one point is quite likely to have thoughts litter their practice.

If those thoughts are wholesome then they may just happen onto jhana.

Only with 'CONCENTRATED PRACTICE' do they fall away from what the Buddha was actually teaching.
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