AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

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frank k
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AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by frank k »

http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... uddha.html

how vitakka thoughts decompose easily into perceptions that carry into second jhana and beyond
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Ontheway
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by Ontheway »

Reading the Sutta you gave, Lord Buddha certainly gives a clear intended meaning that those eight thoughts served as a direction (or reflection; inspiration) for a person before exerting his/her energy in developing mind. It is a preliminary work for settling down mind before real meditation training.

From your blogspot:
"Try it out. Take any of those 8 thoughts, find one that applies to you, pick out one of those 8 Dharmic qualities that you possess.

Say those words from that sutta passage silently in your mind, that's vaci-sankhara, vocalization fabrication, the thoughts you think before you say them out loud."

But that Sutta did not say that by saying those words out loud or by saying them inside our mind will gives you first Jhana automatically. Bhavana work (taking up a suitable meditation subject) still need to be done for Jhana to arise.

Quote from the Sutta:
“When, Anuruddha, you reflect on these eight thoughts of a great person, then, as much as you wish, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, you will enter and dwell in the first jhāna, which consists of rapture and pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by thought and examination.

“When you reflect on these eight thoughts of a great person, then, as much as you wish, with the subsiding of thought and examination, you will enter and dwell in the second jhāna, which has internal placidity and unification of mind and consists of rapture and pleasure born of concentration, without thought and examination."

What you suggested in your blogspot is very close to one of Mahadeva's Five Points:

1. Arhats can be led astray by others, that is, have seminal emissions during their sleep, accompanied by erotic dreams, attributable to deities taking on female forms.

2. Arhats are still subject to ignorance, not defiled ignorance (avidya), the first link of dependent origination, but undefiled ignorance (aklishta ajñana), a residue of their former passions, by virtue of which they do not know the names and clans of men and women, the path to take, the names of trees, woods, and grasses, etc.

3.&4. Arhats are still subject to doubt (kanksha) and can be informed by others. (This is a consequence of the preceding one).

5. Entry into the buddhist path can be accompanied by a vocal utterance (vacibheda). The Holy One (arya) who has entered the stream and is possessed of the first dhyana, exclaims: "Oh suffering", and that cry can be considered an artifice meant to cause the appearance of the path

From the aspect of scriptures, Visuddhimagga did not contradict with what was recorded in both Suttanta Pitaka and Abhidhamma Pitaka. Although I am not an active meditator (now exploring), even judging from what written in Suttanta Pitaka (fourfold reckoning of Jhana attainment) & Abhidhamma Pitaka (Fivefold reckoning of Jhana attainment) and those summarised texts in Visuddhimagga are definitely cohesive.

Furthermore, the way you suggested how to gain First Jhana by speaking those sentences verbally or in mind, was not found in Maha Satipatthana Sutta, which is the authoritative sutta on meditation topic. That's pretty unconvincing. :reading:
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by dharmacorps »

Faith in the Buddha is important indeed, it means you don't need interlocutors: inclusive of any monk, teacher, or blogger.
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ontheway wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:10 pmWhat you suggested in your blogspot is very close to one of Mahadeva's Five Points:

[...]

5. Entry into the buddhist path can be accompanied by a vocal utterance (vacibheda). The Holy One (arya) who has entered the stream and is possessed of the first dhyana, exclaims: "Oh suffering", and that cry can be considered an artifice meant to cause the appearance of the path
This has precedence, oddly enough, in the Pāli Canon. When persons like the Venerable Sāriputta say, "Bhavanirodho nibbānaṃ," that is a vocal utterance associated with a path-moment. It never became dogma/doctrine in Theravāda, but it's there in the Theravādin scriptures all the same. Likely the scriptures Venerable Mahādeva used had similar utterances of "Dukkha!" associated with stream-entry.

I'm not arguing that Thesis 5 is correct or incorrect. Just contextualizing it.
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by josaphatbarlaam »

frank k wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:17 pm http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... uddha.html

how vitakka thoughts decompose easily into perceptions that carry into second jhana and beyond
Now this is very interesting. It explains how Buddha fell into jhana as a kid under the rose-apple tree. No complex doctrine necessary, just having these mindsets.
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by BrokenBones »

Hi frank

Agree with your post but I suggest that all eight thoughts are to be sequentially contemplated to achieve results with the mind settling with the last thought... unless that is, your mind settles earlier.
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by BrokenBones »

josaphatbarlaam wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:25 pm
frank k wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:17 pm http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... uddha.html

how vitakka thoughts decompose easily into perceptions that carry into second jhana and beyond
Now this is very interesting. It explains how Buddha fell into jhana as a kid under the rose-apple tree. No complex doctrine necessary, just having these mindsets.
👍

Restraint and cultivating right mindsets (right view).
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by confusedlayman »

there is no problem with sutta or vism or ajhan brahm or any monk who say similar experience. I think frank should not bad mouth without personal exp of his own jhana.
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by nirodh27 »

This adds well to MN19 (The agamas have the correct order I think btw), MN20, MN78, MN125, AN6.73 (which links the jhana with the practice about the drawbacks) and the Petakopadesa description of this practice. I think also that the metaphors of the agamas about the first (immersing the body and mind in the pure and clean waters of renunciation) and second Jhana (the lotus) fits well in this kind of practice.

Thank you Frankk, even if I don't approve your style of addressing those Ajahns, which does more harm than good to your "quest", your interpretation of the Jhanas is truly amazing and so helpful for getting more dispassion (so helpful that the sensation is always that by using it to the fullest It would be impossible not to became a monk). Of course, it can be appreciated a lot by those who are serious about meditation and dispassion. For the Buddha Jhanas are there not only to get pleasure to avoid temptation from desidre, but to actually do the work of dispassion and to burn attacchment and they have to be evaluated on that respect. Yours is clearly the work of a person that have tried hard with meditation for getting dispassion and abandoment which is the foremost quality for the Buddha. Please do remember that this meditation can work also for your aversion towards Sujato's views ;)

I haven't found a good answer of why in the world the Buddha choosed to use the words vitakka and vicara which are clearly used everywhere else for thoughts and for first Jhana to intend something where the thought itself is long gone..
Psychologically, it normally means a more sustained reflection or examination of a thought, a keeping in mind of the topic that vitakka has brought to mind. In jhana, it follows the same process. The coarse verbal reflection is long gone, and in its place is the gentle holding or pressing of the mind with its object. Sujato: https://sujato.wordpress.com/2012/12/06 ... -in-jhana/
The argument of Sujato to arrive at this conclusion is that every term in Jhana is the high dhammic counterpart of the normal usage, but it is shown everywhere that there is already an higher counterpart usage inside the Dhamma of Vitakka&Vicara as shown for example in AN8.30 and with the formula "thoughts of renunciation,ecc".

Following Sujato we have:

Viveka Normally = physical seclusion. Dhamma = seclusion from attachments.
Kama normally = pleasures of life in general, Dhamma = allure of pleasure of any six sense base in the sabbe.
akusala normally= generally not being good at something, Dhamma = tendencies of craving that creates suffering.
dhamma normally = law, custom, Dhamma = five hindrances.

The same is valid for Vitakka&Vicara, but this is ignored:

Vitakka&Vicara normally = coarse thought of any kind, Dhamma = Thoughts of renunciation, non-aversion, non cruelty and please read MN20 in which the dhammic higher meaning of Vitakka is clearly there. This difference from coarse Vitakka and the "higher Dhammic" Vitakka btw is everywhere in the canon.

That a third higher meaning of a meaning that is already high (since thoughts and intentions of renunciaton are not something basic at all and being able to substitute akusala thoughts with kusala ones as in MN20 is a very very high wisdom attainment) has been put inside the Jhana formula without having this re-definition stated somewhere is really bewildering. Especially since the third higher meaning is totally devoid of the principal characteristic of both the first and the second higher meaning, which is clearly the verbalization. And btw the higher Dhammic meaning in every example of Sujato is an higher meaning that is linked to the teachings, not a generic one.
There is a kind of lifting of the mind onto an object. This is normally quite subtle, and we don’t notice it because we are interested in the words. It becomes more obvious sometimes when you try to think about something, but your mind is not really interested. It’s as if you keep moving the mind towards that topic, but nothing much happens. You can also feel it when the words stop. The ‘thought’ in some sense is there, apart from the verbalizations. It’s a subverbal thought, a placing or hovering of the mind in a certain way. This is what vitakka refers to in jhana. This is the subtle aspect of ‘thought’ that is carried over into jhana, when the coarse aspect, the verbalization, is left behind.
Here instead we have a "generic" higher meaning again unlinked to Dhamma as a teching. In fact, no Dhamma is needed to explain this subtle Vitakka as in this example of Sujato.

And that re-definition would confuse a lot of listeners that already know Dhamma and so they will surely intend not the coarse meaning, but the second highest Dhammic definition [Thoughts of renunciation, non-aversion, non cruelty]. No-one that is inside the Buddhist milieu gets confused by reading the other terms since they are automatically linked to the other teachings of the Canon and the coarse/everyday meaning is ignored.

The Buddha should have state somewhere "no no, I intend a third meaning, an even subtler one of the coarse meaning and also of the higher Dhamma meaning that i've put everywhere in the canon! And in this third meaning, the second higher meaning is not there and btw is again a generic meaning where the link to the teaching that there is in the second meaning is lost". Every meditator should have been warned somewhere (I would say everywhere Jhanas are cited because of his importance!) of this third meaning that is not evident at all if we take only MN, SN or AN.

The disparity of a mind in first jhana is of course is in the quality and direction (towards renunciation) of thoughts, that are not a problem per se, but only when the cetana/sankhara is one connected with desire, aversion or ignorance. Of course, one cannot sustain those thoughts forever since intention and Jhanas are impermanent and first jhana especially needs energy, that is why second jhana is suggested only after you are good at first jhana. The vitakka/vicara is then abandoned leaving the mind unified and happy with intentions of Dhamma without verbal thought which is sustainable for a longer time.

Your research is a great resource with goes well with the almost complete book of Ajahn Kumara about Samadhi which I think you should read. It is free on the internet.
Last edited by nirodh27 on Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:25 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by nirodh27 »

josaphatbarlaam wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:25 pm
frank k wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:17 pm http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... uddha.html

how vitakka thoughts decompose easily into perceptions that carry into second jhana and beyond
Now this is very interesting. It explains how Buddha fell into jhana as a kid under the rose-apple tree. No complex doctrine necessary, just having these mindsets.
:goodpost:
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by frank k »

Ontheway wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:10 pm ... It is a preliminary work for settling down mind before real meditation training.
...
And that "real meditation training" has to use a consistent lexicon where vitakka means the same thing once sentence before, and the sentence within first jhana.

If you can't tell the difference between Vism., Tv Ab, and sutta, you should just stay on the sidelines without drawing conclusions.

Just food for thought, while you're standing on the sideline. Do you think you know more about sutta and Abhidhamma than Bhante Gunaratana for example? He ordained in his teens I believe, a Sri Lankan Bhikkhu culturally inheriting a trust and faith in Vism. and Abhidhamma. He had a photographic memory, studied the tipitaka, accepted the dogmatic belief that Sutta and abhidhamma didn't contradict, but after a few decades, and careful study, decided they do in fact contradict on jhana.

Details of that here:
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... index.html

Do you have photographic memory? Do you think you studied the Abhidhamma and suttas more than he did? Do you think you somehow possess some special knowledge that he doesn't?
If not, you should be asking yourself, if people smarter and more experienced than me find that Suttas and Vism. have vastly different understanding of jhana, maybe they're on to something? At the very least, maybe I should read their analysis and try to understand their point of view?
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by frank k »

nirodh27 wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:36 am ...
Thank you Frankk, even if I don't approve your style of addressing those Ajahns, which does more harm than good to your "quest", your interpretation of the Jhanas is truly amazing and so helpful for getting more dispassion ...
,,,
It's an ongoing quest for me to try to figure out how to strike the balance between speaking clearly, warning of danger clearly, while not alienating a portion of the audience for a perceived disrespect of some Ajahns.

Consider the eminent monks like Ajahn thanissaro who do explain clearly a correct interpretation of sati, the jhanas, etc., without ever naming people who have opposing views.

What's the result of that? To me it looks like most Buddhists believe right speech and right views means being egalitarian, that Vism., Ajahn Brahm, B. Thanissaro, abhidhamma all have equal rights and probably equally valid interpretations that don't contradict each other if you study their cases deeply enough.

That's a nice wish, but sadly deluded.

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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by frank k »

Exactly. The first jhana experience as a kid (MN 36) was remarkable, but still rooted in very ordinary and tangible experience everyone could relate to. You would think if Buddha as a boy had really entered a superhuman state where his body disappeared, he was flooded by cosmic orgasm, and could not hear sounds, feel mosquito bites, or even kinasethetically sense where his body was, you would expect MN 36 to mention that, as well as more of a sense of wonder, "Wow! my body disappeared suddenly, this is superhuman out of the ordinary!".
And you would think when MN 36 talks about learning the formless attainments from the two brahman teacher, he would have been able to pick it up instantly, like, "OH yeah, I remember doing that as a little boy when my father was working... where my mind separated from my body..."

nirodh27 wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:38 am
josaphatbarlaam wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:25 pm
frank k wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:17 pm http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... uddha.html

how vitakka thoughts decompose easily into perceptions that carry into second jhana and beyond
Now this is very interesting. It explains how Buddha fell into jhana as a kid under the rose-apple tree. No complex doctrine necessary, just having these mindsets.
:goodpost:
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by TheSynergist »

frank k wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:04 pm Exactly. The first jhana experience as a kid (MN 36) was remarkable, but still rooted in very ordinary and tangible experience everyone could relate to. You would think if Buddha as a boy had really entered a superhuman state where his body disappeared, he was flooded by cosmic orgasm, and could not hear sounds, feel mosquito bites, or even kinasethetically sense where his body was, you would expect MN 36 to mention that, as well as more of a sense of wonder, "Wow! my body disappeared suddenly, this is superhuman out of the ordinary!".
And you would think when MN 36 talks about learning the formless attainments from the two brahman teacher, he would have been able to pick it up instantly, like, "OH yeah, I remember doing that as a little boy when my father was working... where my mind separated from my body..."

nirodh27 wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:38 am
josaphatbarlaam wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:25 pm

Now this is very interesting. It explains how Buddha fell into jhana as a kid under the rose-apple tree. No complex doctrine necessary, just having these mindsets.
:goodpost:
It seems to me that the gist of the suttas suggests that there is a substantial gap between 1st and 2nd Jhana. Evidence:
- The leader of the Jains believed in 1st Jhana, but not second — SN 41.8
- AN 3.94 mentions how someone who has already achieved stream entry can become an anagami by dying in the 1st Jhana. But it doesn't say anything about the other Jhanas….perhaps this is a hint that they were substantially harder to obtain than the 1st?
- SN 55.54 says that a married stream winner can become fully liberated at death by going through the Deva realms, but doesn't go further than the Brahma realm, which is usually associated with 1st Jhana. There's nothing about the devas of streaming radiance, etc. above the Brahma realm. Could it be that it was considered unrealistic to expect a married layperson to go beyond first Jhana?
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Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

Post by frank k »

TheSynergist wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:38 pm ...
It seems to me that the gist of the suttas suggests that there is a substantial gap between 1st and 2nd Jhana. Evidence:
- The leader of the Jains believed in 1st Jhana, but not second — SN 41.8
- AN 3.94 mentions how someone who has already achieved stream entry can become an anagami by dying in the 1st Jhana. But it doesn't say anything about the other Jhanas….perhaps this is a hint that they were substantially harder to obtain than the 1st?
- SN 55.54 says that a married stream winner can become fully liberated at death by going through the Deva realms, but doesn't go further than the Brahma realm, which is usually associated with 1st Jhana. There's nothing about the devas of streaming radiance, etc. above the Brahma realm. Could it be that it was considered unrealistic to expect a married layperson to go beyond first Jhana?
That's a very interesting idea, worthy of starting a separate thread to collect references on that.

There is a different skill set to perform 1st jhana versus second jhana. To progress from 2nd jhana through 4th, you're using the same skill set, it's about charging up the jhana battery and opening up energy channels. The mental joy of piti one naturally discards as one becomes normalized and find nothing novel or exotic about jhanic bliss. Just like scions of billionaires don't value money and possessions because it's as common as breathing air for them and they have unlimited supply.

The difficulty in really assessing the difference between skill level required between first and second jhana, is that the 4 jhana formula is inherently not an exact science, it's meant to show the general differences between stages of progress in samadhi.
For example, someone with a baseline of 4th jhana proficiency engaging in vitakka and vicara from 4th jhana, would you classify that as an impure 4th jhana with V&V, or a first jhana because of the presence of V&V? It wouldn't quite qualify as first jhana because there is just a-dukkham-a-sukham neutral sensation (instead of sukha indriya based on viveka).

But a married lay person for example who does a 3 month retreat and is able to charge up the jhana battery from maintaining celibacy and meditating frequently, they might briefly have states of 2nd jhana or higher even though their baseline normal is first jhana. They wouldn't accumulate enough experience in 2nd jhana and higher to really make the distinctions and clearly know the differences.
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