Mr. Seek wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:09 am
It's not anguish, it's just a simple observation. If you attain realization and you still come across dukkha in your experience or world, well then that is dukkha being present, meaning dukkha hasn't ceased. Maybe you have chosen to work with it in a different way, sure, but it's still there for everyone else, it's the very fabric of the universe. Even if you have somehow turned immortal, omnipotent, omniscient, an arahant, whatever, you're still stuck in a place where the very opposite is the norm. You continue to go through that.
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If you attain realization and come across someone in pain or sad or feeling frustrated or in despair or whatever you know the truth that there is suffering because of craving and that through the N8P this craving leading to suffering would end. You can even teach about this.
Mr. Seek wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:09 am
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I'll give you an example. Say I'm a noble, a very lavish king. I live lavishly and practice virtue; I have manners and I'm educated. But everyone else around me is a broke uncivilized muggle. Would this be satisfactory for me in any way?
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No as the opposite where everyone else is also lavish and educated would not be satisfactory either. Nothing can bring lasting satisfaction that's why the wise let go this futile search of happiness on things and people and ideas and songs and flavors, etc. They see no point in expecting things to be one way or another.
Mr. Seek wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:09 am
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They teach others because that's their mode of livelihood, because that's just what they do; they give teachings to people and continue their duty as contemplating ascetics, and in return they get requisites like food and shelter. Is there dukkha there in that situation? Yes! They're teaching, they're working, they're begging, they're living. They are living in a reality that is not "perfect". Their world is dukkha. The laymen need teaching, the alms bowls need food put in them, the robes need to be sewn, the novice monks need to be disciplined, the rival sectarians need to be refuted, the suttas need to be recited, requisites like mosquito repellent need to be acquired, etc. What madness! This is DUKKHA SUPREME!
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The reality is the way it is. That's what they see, they have no expectations about what they see. To give teachings, to contemplate, ascetism, getting food and shelter, to work, to live, that's all the way it is. They don't have an expectation of a perfect reality, they see reality as correct. The world is not theirs, they are not attached to the world in any way. Basic needs are not a cause of suffering because they don't wish to get rid of them. It's only madness for those who crave a different world and don't see it as correct.
Mr. Seek wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:09 am
... If you're teaching out of compassion, as a realized person, is it then not the case that you were or are being moved by the dukkha of others? In other words, dukkha is still present. If not with you, then with others. Can compassion exist without there being dukkha present? No. Compassion is a reaction. I see you in dukkha and therefore out of compassion decide to do something to help you. Again, this is all DUKKHA. In such a scenario, there is dukkha present in the reality of a realized person. Dukkha has not ceased. It is very much present.
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They are not moved by others in pain or despair or any suffering. They help because they are free from greed, hatred and delusion. It's the correct way of acting and they act correctly, they do what has to be done. Suffering is not present for them, what is present is deep insight of how things are.
Mr. Seek wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:09 am
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What other reason might be there for someone enlightened to teach others? I don't know. But if he has to teach anyone, then that's dukkha. One, because he has to put in the effort. And two, because he's in a world where people are lacking, where people need teaching; he's not in a world where people are already learned and already enlightened. They're lacking, say, wisdom. They are in dukkha, whether subtle or gross. And the arahant is right there in the middle, like a clean lotus flower in a yucky pond. Has the pond ceased to exist just because the lotus has risen above it? No. The pond exists, and the lotus is in it. Which is the issue I brought forth with this topic. Buddhism advertses the cessation of dukkha, yet dukkha is still encountered by enlightened Buddhists, to say nothing of unenlightened Buddhists.
If having to teach is the case it is not suffering for them. The effort does not bring suffering to them, they see it as the way things are. People lacking wisdom is not a cause of dukkha for them because they don't crave for people to be wise. The yucky pond is not seen as theirs, they stopped "being someone unpolluted in the middle of all the murk", they just stopped being anything. There's simply no lotus there and they can see this.
The teachings of the Buddha do not advertise or promise anything. They simply show the truth of this world so we don't fool ourselves.
Mr. Seek wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:35 am
MN 141 bro and many other chunks of the canon. Dukkha is explained as literally everything and anything, and it's the cessation of that very same dukkha that is being advertised as possible. I'm not making it up.
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Everthing and anything is unsatisfactory, Everything and anything that is affected by clinging is also suffering.
Mr. Seek wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:35 am
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Successful Buddhist practicioners at their moment of realization don't typically disintegrate into fairy dust and disappear from reality, taking all the dukkha with them.
I'm not against Buddhism by saying all of this, I'm just against false advertising. I probably wouldn't mind if the practice, goal, fruit, etc., is advertised simply as the end of unnecessary craving [for sensuality], the end of spiritual perplexity, etc. This is in stark contrast to "the end of dukkha", as if dukkha will just magically disappear when one attains unbinding.
They don't disintegrate, they simply realize the truth that there were so much confusion to the point of believing there was someone listening, someone loving, someone feeling, someone knowing, someone discriminating who had sandals and good intentions and a life.
The teaching is for the end of all craving. With no craving there's no suffering and this is not magic, this is the one thing that is not an illusion.