How do you deal with the fact that...

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Mr. Seek
Posts: 582
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:45 am

Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

Post by Mr. Seek »

I get it that one can "become free" through playing with identification and perception, or by reducing the amount of physical and mental baggage they've got, but...


... to me it kind of sucks that we're being promised the ending of dukkha, at least in some suttas, yet it's clear that practitioners still encounter it to a degree. The Buddha had a sore back, got poisoned, his cousin flung rocks at him. His disciples got murdered left and right. His clan got slaughtered. The suttas give lots of examples, if we are to believe them. Similarly, now in real life, 21st century, it's the same. Didn't Ajahn Chah spend some years paralyzed? Like... Come on. You get what I'm talking about. Sickness, death, pain, not getting what we want, getting what we don't want. Dukkha. I don't have to explain it in detail. We're all going through it right now as we're reading and writing.

So this is what I'm trying to address. Yeah? It's got me in a knot. How do I explain this to myself, or to someone else, without lying? We say and practice for dukkhanirodha, but there's still dukkha. For laymen and monks. At least that's how it seems.

:(
Last edited by Mr. Seek on Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22405
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

Post by Ceisiwr »

un8- wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:06 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:01 pm
un8- wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:58 pm
Physical pain does not mentally affect the Arahant, so no he does not suffer from it.
Pain itself is defined as a form of dukkha, of which there are 3.
Any conditined thing is dukkha. An Arahant is not affected by any of those things. "Affected" means it doesn't affect his mind, it doesn't cause mental dukkha to arise.
I agree, but he still experiences dukkha.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22405
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr. Seek wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:14 pm I get it that one can "become free" through playing with identification and perception, or by reducing the amount of physical and mental baggage they've got, but...


... to me it kind of sucks that we're being promised the ending of dukkha, at least in some suttas, yet it's clear that practitioners still encounter it to a degree. The Buddha had a sore back, got poisoned, his cousin flung rocks at him. His disciples got murdered left and right. His clan got slaughtered. The suttas give lots of examples, if we are to believe them. Similarly, now in real life, 21st century, it's the same. Didn't Ajahn Chah spend some years paralyzed? Like... Come on. You get what I'm talking about. Sickness, death, pain, not getting what we want, getting what we don't want. Dukkha. I don't have to explain it in detail. We're all going through it right now as we're reading and writing.

So this is what I'm trying to address. Yeah? It's got me in a knot. How do I explain this to myself, or to someone else, without lying? We say and practice for dukkhanirodha, but there's still dukkha. For laymen and monks. At least that's how it seems.

:(
The promise is to be free from all dukkha. That can happen, when the Arahant dies.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Mr. Seek
Posts: 582
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:45 am

Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

Post by Mr. Seek »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:17 pm The promise is to be free from all dukkha. That can happen, when the Arahant dies.
I ain't taking chances on promises bro. Was that how the Buddha raised the Sasana? "I promise that if you practice there'll be a reward when you die"? Nah, don't believe it. He wouldn't be different from his contemporaries if he did that, and his teaching would be no different to us than say any other religion with its metaphysical promises.

Most suttas refer to here-and-now. And there are suttas like Snp 4.11 that don't support the two nirvana doctrine.

I don't know, really.
Last edited by Mr. Seek on Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
un8-
Posts: 747
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:49 am

Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

Post by un8- »

Mr. Seek wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:14 pm ...

Look at it as a dream. If you have pain in a dream and then you wake up, the pain isn't important anymore.

Likewise an Arahant can end the dream whenever they want if it becomes physically painful, some do it by attaining Parinibbana intentionally, others do it by using the knife.

The problem is if people end the dream via suicide while the latent tendencies are still there, and if rebirth is true, then you're back to square one.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22405
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr. Seek wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:21 pm
I ain't taking chances on promises bro. Was that how the Buddha raised the Sasana? "I promise that if you practice there'll be a reward when you die"? Nah, don't believe it. He wouldn't be different from his contemporaries if he did that, and his teaching would be no different to us than say any other rekigion with its metaphysical promises.

Most suttas refer to here-and-now. And there are suttas like Snp 4.11 that don't support the two nirvana doctrine.

I don't know.
The Buddha was different in that his followers could know that they were free from greed, hatred and delusion now and so free from mental anguish now and in turn all dukkha, in all of its forms, at the end of their lives. I think you are still thinking that “you” will be free from dukkha, like Nibbana is some place Buddhas and Arahants go to.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
un8-
Posts: 747
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:49 am

Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

Post by un8- »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:16 pm
I agree, but he still experiences dukkha.
He experiences yes, but it's a non-issue, just like having a cold is a non-issue for one who is mature about it, maybe it's an issue for little kids.

Arahants continue to live to spread the dhamma, since they have no craving for existence. The moment their issue is debilitating and they cannot spread the dhamma, they may as well just enter parinibbana, which they do in the suttas. There's a sutta of an Arahant who just stops caring about teaching the dhamma so he tells everyone "tomorrow I will enter parinibbana", and then the next day he sits in front of everyone and enters parinibbana, but not all Arahants have that power.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
Mr. Seek
Posts: 582
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:45 am

Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

Post by Mr. Seek »

What's the most famous Buddhist piece of doctrine? The 4NT. Okay, let's say I'm talking to someone who's vaguely interested in Buddhism and they ask me about the ending of dukkha, which is of course vital to the 4NT.

"So, you practice Buddhism. Do you still encounter dukkha?"
"Ye--Yeah.."
"Ugh. What about the famous teachers in your tradition? Did they encounter dukkha when they were alive?"
"Yeah."
"What about the Buddha and his direct disciples?"
"Yeah, they encountered it."
"So no Buddhist that you know has ever ceased dukkha completely or stopped encountering it, and you're practicing Buddhism to end dukkha, thinking you'll succeed?"
"Technically."
"You need Jesus."

What do I do in that case? Is it not lying to say that our practice leads to dukkhanirodha?
Last edited by Mr. Seek on Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
un8-
Posts: 747
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:49 am

Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

Post by un8- »

Mr. Seek wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:39 pm ...
I would say "they attain Parinibbana which is not death but many people assume it's death"

If an Arahant wants to attain Parinibbana, he would. So what's the issue?
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
Mr. Seek
Posts: 582
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:45 am

Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

Post by Mr. Seek »

un8- wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:42 pm
Mr. Seek wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:39 pm ...
I would say "they attain Parinibbana which is not death but many people assume it's death"

If an Arahant wants to attain Parinibbana, he would. So what's the issue?
Bro. The very fact that someone has to take a knife and kill themselves to escape dukkha is in itself proof of the fact that they still haven't escaped dukkha.
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

Post by Sam Vara »

Mr. Seek wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:39 pm Is it not lying to say that our practice leads to dukkhanirodha?
It is if you assert it as if you knew it for yourself, when you actually don't. But it would be OK to say that you believe that our practice leads to dukkhanirodha, or have faith that it does.

(And ask your interlocutor why you need Jesus. How many people has he actually saved? I mean, as opposed to the promise that he will save them...)
un8-
Posts: 747
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:49 am

Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

Post by un8- »

Mr. Seek wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:46 pm
un8- wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:42 pm
Mr. Seek wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:39 pm ...
I would say "they attain Parinibbana which is not death but many people assume it's death"

If an Arahant wants to attain Parinibbana, he would. So what's the issue?
Bro. The very fact that someone has to take a knife and kill themselves to escape dukkha is in itself proof of the fact that they still haven't escaped dukkha.
They don't take a knife to escape dukkha. They escaped dukkha and craving for existence when they attained Arahantship. They only continue to live to teach the dhamma, otherwise they'd opt straight for parinibbana which some do. That's why the Melinda Panha suttas state when a lay person attains Arahantship either they ordain or attain Parinibbana within 7 days.

So they don't take a knife to escape dukkha, they take a knife because their job can no longer be performed.

Also to be clear there's no sutta that explicitly states an Arahant uses the knife, it could be that in the brief moment they do use the knife they also attain Arahantship. See the sutta that talks about all the stages of a non-returner attaining Arahantship, some attain it instantly upon death, so the moment they die as a non-returner they quickly move to parinibbana.
Last edited by un8- on Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Mr. Seek wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:13 pm ... Buddhism promises the ending of dukkha (suffering or stress), yet its practitioners still encounter it?

Let's put the mind games about perception and identification aside just for a moment.
If you're going to negate and disregard the activity of the mind and the sankharas which arise forthwith, your question is unanswerable in any meaningful way.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:28 pm I think you are still thinking that “you” will be free from dukkha, like Nibbana is some place Buddhas and Arahants go to.
It is the Island,
the Refuge, the Beyond.
~ S 43.1-44
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

Post by cappuccino »

the island is some place to go


the refuge is some place to be
Post Reply