How do you deal with the fact that...

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samseva
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:05 pm Temporarily overcoming the 5 hindrances would mean entry into the Jhānas. None of those are nibbāna.
You can be free of the five hindrances and not be in jhāna, and it should be like that most of the time. The absence of the hindrances is a requirement for entering jhāna. An advanced practitioner should be free of the five hindrances during most of the day during his/her day-to-day life.
Mr. Seek wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:21 pm I ain't taking chances on promises bro. Was that how the Buddha raised the Sasana? "I promise that if you practice there'll be a reward when you die"? Nah, don't believe it. He wouldn't be different from his contemporaries if he did that, and his teaching would be no different to us than say any other religion with its metaphysical promises.

Most suttas refer to here-and-now. And there are suttas like Snp 4.11 that don't support the two nirvana doctrine.
I don't know if Ceisiwr was referring to this, but an arahant is free of mental suffering—but not yet physical suffering. It is only after the death of one who is an arahant that there is no rebirth, and a complete ending of suffering, both mental and physical.
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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MN 141 gives a clear, simple, and detailed explanation for those that insist on textual examples. It explains dukkha as all dukkha (from subtle to gross, mental to physical) and asserts that the path of practice leads to the cessation of dukkha. It also explains what the cessation of dukkha constitutes.

Whether or not this is an EBT is irrelevant.
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samseva
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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See the Salla Sutta:
Bhikkhus, when the uninstructed worldling is being contacted by a painful feeling, he sorrows, grieves, and laments; he weeps beating his breast and becomes distraught. He feels two feelings—a bodily one and a mental one. Suppose they were to strike a man with a dart, and then they would strike him immediately afterwards with a second dart, so that the man would feel a feeling caused by two darts. So too, when the uninstructed worldling is being contacted by a painful feeling … he feels two feelings—a bodily one and a mental one.

[...]

Bhikkhus, when the instructed noble disciple is contacted by a painful feeling, he does not sorrow, grieve, or lament; he does not weep beating his breast and become distraught. He feels one feeling—a bodily one, not a mental one. Suppose they were to strike a man with a dart, but they would not strike him immediately afterwards with a second dart, so that the man would feel a feeling caused by one dart only. So too, when the instructed noble disciple is contacted by a painful feeling … he feels one feeling—a bodily one, not a mental one.
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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samseva wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:48 pm See the Salla Sutta:
Bhikkhus, when the uninstructed worldling is being contacted by a painful feeling, he sorrows, grieves, and laments; he weeps beating his breast and becomes distraught. He feels two feelings—a bodily one and a mental one. Suppose they were to strike a man with a dart, and then they would strike him immediately afterwards with a second dart, so that the man would feel a feeling caused by two darts. So too, when the uninstructed worldling is being contacted by a painful feeling … he feels two feelings—a bodily one and a mental one.

[...]

Bhikkhus, when the instructed noble disciple is contacted by a painful feeling, he does not sorrow, grieve, or lament; he does not weep beating his breast and become distraught. He feels one feeling—a bodily one, not a mental one. Suppose they were to strike a man with a dart, but they would not strike him immediately afterwards with a second dart, so that the man would feel a feeling caused by one dart only. So too, when the instructed noble disciple is contacted by a painful feeling … he feels one feeling—a bodily one, not a mental one.
Exactly. This too contradicts "the cessation of dukkha". :/
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samseva
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:00 pm Exactly. This too contradicts "the cessation of dukkha". :/
There is no contradiction. Mental suffering is immensely painful. When one reaches Nibbāna, there is no more mental suffering—and when one reaches parinibbāna, there is both no more mental suffering and physical suffering.

You thought Nibbāna would result in not feeling physical pain anymore? The Buddha had back pain near the end of his life. It didn't cause him mental suffering—just physical sensations that arose and ceased.
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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samseva wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:05 pm
Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:00 pm Exactly. This too contradicts "the cessation of dukkha". :/
There is no contradiction. Mental suffering is immensely painful. When one reaches Nibbāna, there is no more mental suffering—and when one reaches parinibbāna, there is both no more mental suffering and physical suffering.

You thought Nibbāna would result in not feeling physical pain anymore? The Buddha had back pain near the end of his life. It didn't cause him mental suffering—just physical sensations that arose and ceased.
Doesn't seem like THE cessation of dukkha to me. MN 141 for example describes dukkha in a lot more ways. Also, just saying, painful sensations and feelings are gross, obvious dukkha, that can be noticed and acknowledged even by little children. There's more subtle forms of dukkha out there.

Interesting thing is that my original intentions in making this topic weren't even to debate whether this is true or false, but to see how people deal with the fact that this is true.
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:14 pm Doesn't seem like THE cessation of dukkha to me. MN 141 for example describes dukkha in a lot more ways. Also, just saying, painful sensations and feelings are gross, obvious dukkha, that can be noticed and acknowledged even by little children. There's more subtle forms of dukkha out there.
There is mental pain, and physical pain. When one reaches Nibbāna, there is the cessation of mental pain—and due to how having reached Nibbāna puts an end to rebirth, this guarantees an ending of physical pain.
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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samseva wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:17 pm
Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:14 pm Doesn't seem like THE cessation of dukkha to me. MN 141 for example describes dukkha in a lot more ways. Also, just saying, painful sensations and feelings are gross, obvious dukkha, that can be noticed and acknowledged even by little children. There's more subtle forms of dukkha out there.
There is mental pain, and physical pain. When one reaches Nibbāna, there is the cessation of mental pain—and due to how having reached Nibbāna puts an end to rebirth, this guarantees an ending of physical pain.
Well in that case, and if that were true, then the full realization of the Dhamma is not visible in the here-and-now and cannot be verified. The "final fruit" is hidden away or is non-existent and you're expected to believe that you'll get it, the same way certain western religions expect you to believe that your eternal salvation in heaven is "guaranteed" if you simply obey their command.

Again, the 4th noble truth is not "the path that leads to the cessation of mental dukkha in this life, and to the cessation of physical dukkha in the world beyond", it's just "the path that leads to the cessation of dukkha". Also, pretty sure the line between mental and physical dukkha is quite blurry. Just raising some interesting points.
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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samseva wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:05 pm
Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:00 pm Exactly. This too contradicts "the cessation of dukkha". :/
There is no contradiction. Mental suffering is immensely painful. When one reaches Nibbāna, there is no more mental suffering—and when one reaches parinibbāna, there is both no more mental suffering and physical suffering.

You thought Nibbāna would result in not feeling physical pain anymore? The Buddha had back pain near the end of his life. It didn't cause him mental suffering—just physical sensations that arose and ceased.
Though physical pain is still unpleasant, particularly as one grows older. So is Nibbana merely the cessation of mental anguish?
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samseva
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:43 pm Well in that case, and if that were true, then the full realization of the Dhamma is not visible in the here-and-now and cannot be verified.
You can, and you do. With Nibbāna there is complete cessation of mental pain.

Physical pain doesn't happen every minute like with mental pain. When was the last time you felt physical pain? A few days ago, or a few weeks ago? I had a small stomach ache that lasted 2 minutes yesterday.

Mental pain, in varying degrees, is present in almost every single minute of your life.
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samseva
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:49 pm Though physical pain is still unpleasant, particularly as one grows older. So is Nibbana merely the cessation of mental anguish?
Sure, but you die not long after old age. And if you don't reach Nibbāna before that, you get reborn and experience mental suffering, as well as physical suffering all over again.
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:43 pm
Well in that case, and if that were true, then the full realization of the Dhamma is not visible in the here-and-now and cannot be verified. The "final fruit" is hidden away or is non-existent and you're expected to believe that you'll get it, the same way certain western religions expect you to believe that your eternal salvation in heaven is "guaranteed" if you simply obey their command.
The verification of here & now, refers to the path moment. It is the taste of nibbana. Once you had that taste, you won't doubt
there is full stop of dukkha exactly as Buddha taught.
The first taste of nibbana to parinibbana, is a long journey accompanied with bodily and mental feelings. This journey is still governed by law of kamma. Hence there is pain.
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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So, back on topic. You lot don't seem to be fazed by this. Me myself, I'm quite concerned. As I said earlier, it sucks.
Interesting thing is that my original intentions in making this topic weren't even to debate whether this is true or false, but to see how people deal with the fact that this is true.
I have no idea how one would be able to end all dukkha here and now. It seems almost impossible.
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:28 pm So, back on topic. You lot don't seem to be fazed by this. Me myself, I'm quite concerned. As I said earlier, it sucks.
Nibbāna is the complete ending of mental suffering. Which is enormous.

You would want both there to not be mental suffering and physical suffering—to not feel pain if one were to put their hand on a hot stove, for example?
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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samseva wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:37 pm
Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:28 pm So, back on topic. You lot don't seem to be fazed by this. Me myself, I'm quite concerned. As I said earlier, it sucks.
Nibbāna is the complete ending of mental suffering. You would want it to be both mental suffering and physical suffering—to not feel pain if one were to put their hand on a hot stove, for example?
Yeah bro, I'm talking about all dukkha, like in MN 141. Having to breathe, having to walk, eat, drink, sh*t, piss, sleep, clothe myself, take shelter, chop and burn wood, having to age or get sick, having to get what I don't want, or don't get what I want, having to be in a reality where others experience dukkha, having to learn things or teach things, having to work or beg for food, etc. Having to exist. Life as we know it! Dukkha.

:(
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