How do you deal with the fact that...

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:44 pm
Yeah bro, I'm talking about all dukkha, like in MN 141. Having to breathe, having to walk, eat, drink, sh*t, piss, sleep, clothe myself, take shelter, chop and burn wood, having to age or get sick, having to get what I don't want, or don't get what I want, having to be in a reality where others experience dukkha, having to learn things or teach things, having to work or beg for food, etc. Having to exist. Life as we know it! Dukkha.
It’s not supposed to make you sad. Perhaps try focusing on something else for a while, like the brahmavihārās.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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samseva
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:44 pm Yeah bro, I'm talking about all dukkha, like in MN 141. Having to breathe, having to walk, eat, drink, sh*t, piss, sleep, clothe myself, take shelter, chop and burn wood, having to age or get sick, having to get what I don't want, or don't get what I want, having to be in a reality where others experience dukkha, having to learn things or teach things, having to work or beg for food, etc. Having to exist. Life as we know it! Dukkha.
All those things are painful only because they can create mental suffering.

For someone who has reached Nibbāna, those things aren't suffering.
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

Post by Mr. Seek »

samseva wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:49 pm All those things are painful only because they can create mental suffering.

For someone who has reached Nibbāna, those things aren't suffering.
I know where you're coming from and what you mean, but still. Are you not fazed by the fact that they still have to encounter all of that?
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:47 pm It’s not supposed to make you sad. Perhaps try focusing on something else for a while, like the brahmavihārās.
I usually resort (or rather, tended to resort, at one point) precisely to that, but in all honesty, they are dukkha too, just more subtle forms of it. I'm not talking out of what I've read, but out of many continuous hours of metta and mudita meditation (in suitable conditions). They mess with one's energy and head too much, require constant upkeep, and whether their drug-like effects can subvert or hide away all other dukkha you're experiencing at that moment depends entirely on your conditions and skill. I've tried them under unsuitable conditions: very hard to pull off. If you're not already doing many hours of meditation on said brahmavihara per day, in monk-like conditions, I don't think your power would be strong enough to subvert some of the more serious dukkha. Just some personal observations, other people's mileage may very. Yes, good tool nonetheless. Should give it a more serious try sometime later.
Bundokji
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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Are their alternative translation to dukkha other than suffering or stress?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

Post by Mr. Seek »

Bundokji wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:35 pm Are their alternative translation to dukkha other than suffering or stress?
unhappiness, unsatisfactoriness, the opposite of sukha

https://suttacentral.net/define/dukkha
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mjaviem
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:30 pm ...
If not with you, then with others--and you get to be part of that, or at the very least get to observe it. You might choose to ignore it and dwell in equanimity as much as possible, but it's still there.
The N8FP leads to the end of suffering. Everyone needs to develop the path for the end of all the suffering across the world. What's the purpose of feeling anguish about the suffering still present across the world?
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Bundokji
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:37 pm unhappiness, unsatisfactoriness, the opposite of sukha

https://suttacentral.net/define/dukkha

Yes, in terms of opposites, dukkha means suffering and sukha means happiness. This makes ending suffering or stress a measure of progress or even liberation. The limitation here becomes how to explain that kamma persists after cessation. If there is suffering, then there can be an end to suffering which is testable and measurable.

The above is contingent to framing the goal of the spiritual life in the negative. Dukkha is a negative and ending it is the measure. The positive of transcending dukkha as a limitation is rarely spoke of, which does not eliminate dukkha in the way we like to measure it, but makes it rather insignificant:
"Now, a trifling evil deed done by what sort of individual takes him to hell? There is the case where a certain individual is undeveloped in [contemplating] the body, undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind, undeveloped in discernment: restricted, small-hearted, dwelling with suffering. A trifling evil deed done by this sort of individual takes him to hell.

"Now, a trifling evil deed done by what sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment? There is the case where a certain individual is developed in [contemplating] the body, developed in virtue, developed in mind, developed in discernment: unrestricted, large-hearted, dwelling with the immeasurable.[1] A trifling evil deed done by this sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

"Suppose that a man were to drop a salt crystal into a small amount of water in a cup. What do you think? Would the water in the cup become salty because of the salt crystal, and unfit to drink?"

"Yes, lord. Why is that? There being only a small amount of water in the cup, it would become salty because of the salt crystal, and unfit to drink."

"Now suppose that a man were to drop a salt crystal into the River Ganges. What do you think? Would the water in the River Ganges become salty because of the salt crystal, and unfit to drink?"

"No, lord. Why is that? There being a great mass of water in the River Ganges, it would not become salty because of the salt crystal or unfit to drink."

"In the same way, there is the case where a trifling evil deed done by one individual [the first] takes him to hell; and there is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by the other individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.
Its noteworthy that the word immeasurable is being used. The measuring mindset would equate ending with annihilating or with absence, hence quite self fulfilling. Ending suffering becomes an obsession rather than seeing suffering as insignificant. Seeing the insubstantiality of the conditioned is the measure rather than the opposite.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Mr. Seek
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

Post by Mr. Seek »

mjaviem wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:15 pm
Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:30 pm ...
If not with you, then with others--and you get to be part of that, or at the very least get to observe it. You might choose to ignore it and dwell in equanimity as much as possible, but it's still there.
The N8FP leads to the end of suffering. Everyone needs to develop the path for the end of all the suffering across the world. What's the purpose of feeling anguish about the suffering still present across the world?
It's not anguish, it's just a simple observation. If you attain realization and you still come across dukkha in your experience or world, well then that is dukkha being present, meaning dukkha hasn't ceased. Maybe you have chosen to work with it in a different way, sure, but it's still there for everyone else, it's the very fabric of the universe. Even if you have somehow turned immortal, omnipotent, omniscient, an arahant, whatever, you're still stuck in a place where the very opposite is the norm. You continue to go through that.

I'll give you an example. Say I'm a noble, a very lavish king. I live lavishly and practice virtue; I have manners and I'm educated. But everyone else around me is a broke uncivilized muggle. Would this be satisfactory for me in any way?

I'll give you yet another example. When someone attains realization, say the Buddha or one of his disciples: tell me, why do they teach the Dhamma to others? You can give a couple of different answers. Let's examine them.

They teach others because that's their mode of livelihood, because that's just what they do; they give teachings to people and continue their duty as contemplating ascetics, and in return they get requisites like food and shelter. Is there dukkha there in that situation? Yes! They're teaching, they're working, they're begging, they're living. They are living in a reality that is not "perfect". Their world is dukkha. The laymen need teaching, the alms bowls need food put in them, the robes need to be sewn, the novice monks need to be disciplined, the rival sectarians need to be refuted, the suttas need to be recited, requisites like mosquito repellent need to be acquired, etc. What madness! This is DUKKHA SUPREME!

So, what other reason might a realized person have when teaching? Teaching out of compassion? Ah, yes, compashyon. It's my safe word. What a dirty, dirty word. It gets thrown around in Buddhist circles like it's nothing. Let's consider it for a moment. If you're teaching out of compassion, as a realized person, is it then not the case that you were or are being moved by the dukkha of others? In other words, dukkha is still present. If not with you, then with others. Can compassion exist without there being dukkha present? No. Compassion is a reaction. I see you in dukkha and therefore out of compassion decide to do something to help you. Again, this is all DUKKHA. In such a scenario, there is dukkha present in the reality of a realized person. Dukkha has not ceased. It is very much present.

What other reason might be there for someone enlightened to teach others? I don't know. But if he has to teach anyone, then that's dukkha. One, because he has to put in the effort. And two, because he's in a world where people are lacking, where people need teaching; he's not in a world where people are already learned and already enlightened. They're lacking, say, wisdom. They are in dukkha, whether subtle or gross. And the arahant is right there in the middle, like a clean lotus flower in a yucky pond. Has the pond ceased to exist just because the lotus has risen above it? No. The pond exists, and the lotus is in it. Which is the issue I brought forth with this topic. Buddhism advertses the cessation of dukkha, yet dukkha is still encountered by enlightened Buddhists, to say nothing of unenlightened Buddhists.
Last edited by Mr. Seek on Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mjaviem
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:09 am ...
In your view the end of suffering is the disappearance of everything. That's not the truth. Only disappearance of craving is needed. I'll reply later
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Mr. Seek
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

Post by Mr. Seek »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:22 am
Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:09 am ...
In your view the end of suffering is the disappearance of everything. That's not the truth. Only disappearance of craving is needed. I'll reply later
MN 141 bro and many other chunks of the canon. Dukkha is explained as literally everything and anything, and it's the cessation of that very same dukkha that is being advertised as possible. I'm not making it up.

Why are people backing away from the 4NT and the word dukkhanirodha when it's not convenient? These are the most popular terms in Theravada circles. Everyone started with the 4NT, me included. First noble truth: [everything is] dukkha. Fourth noble truth: the path of practice that leads to the cessation of [that very same] dukkha.
Successful Buddhist practicioners at their moment of realization don't typically disintegrate into fairy dust and disappear from reality, taking all the dukkha with them.

I'm not against Buddhism by saying all of this, I'm just against false advertising. I probably wouldn't mind if the practice, goal, fruit, etc., is advertised simply as the end of unnecessary craving [for sensuality], the end of spiritual perplexity, etc. This is in stark contrast to "the end of dukkha", as if dukkha will just magically disappear when one attains unbinding.
Last edited by Mr. Seek on Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:45 am, edited 3 times in total.
Jack19990101
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

Post by Jack19990101 »

You believe the world is external to your mind, independently stand outside you -that is why you have the confusion.
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

Post by Mr. Seek »

Jack19990101 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:40 am You believe the world is external to your mind, independently stand outside you -that is why you have the confusion.
No bro, my practice is irrelevant here. I'm addressing the issue of false advertising and unfulfilled promises, and how we as honest, serious practicioners are dealing with that. I understand that this is a touchy subject, but let's swallow the pain and try to examine the problem, the same way the Buddha examined his experience with his first two teachers, and then later on with his ascetic practices.
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:48 am I'm addressing the issue of false advertising and unfulfilled promises
after two thousand five hundred years…


those who could easily reach the goal are gone, gone
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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you have to be crazy now


sanely practicing this teaching is not enough
Jack19990101
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

Post by Jack19990101 »

Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:48 am
No bro, my practice is irrelevant here. I'm addressing the issue of false advertising and unfulfilled promises, and how we as honest, serious practicioners are dealing with that. I understand that this is a touchy subject, but let's swallow the pain and try to examine the problem, the same way the Buddha examined his experience with his first two teachers, and then later on with his ascetic practices.
I didn't read the whole thread. I might be out of context here -
False advertising : do you mean that Buddha teaches Anatta yet you still have sense of self?
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