How do you deal with the fact that...

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Mr. Seek
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

Post by Mr. Seek »

cappuccino wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:52 am
Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:48 am I'm addressing the issue of false advertising and unfulfilled promises
after two thousand five hundred years…


those who could easily reach the goal are gone, gone
Bro, there are no sides here, so I don't know in regards to whom you're saying that, but I think that the topic deserves more than just haikus. With all due respect.
cappuccino wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:56 am you have to be crazy now


sanely practicing this teaching is not enough
I've no idea what you mean.
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cappuccino
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:01 am I've no idea what you mean.
you can't sit in meditation for 30 minutes twice a day


you have to insist on constantly seeing inconstancy
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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Jack19990101 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:01 am
Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:48 am
No bro, my practice is irrelevant here. I'm addressing the issue of false advertising and unfulfilled promises, and how we as honest, serious practicioners are dealing with that. I understand that this is a touchy subject, but let's swallow the pain and try to examine the problem, the same way the Buddha examined his experience with his first two teachers, and then later on with his ascetic practices.
I didn't read the whole thread. I might be out of context here -
False advertising : do you mean that Buddha teaches Anatta yet you still have sense of self?
Anatta has nothing to do with this, and neither do I have anything to do with this. I'm just pointing out an error that I spotted and asking how people are dealing with that error, whether they've noticed it themselves, etc. If you want to understand what this thread is about, read the main post and some of my other replies.
cappuccino wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:03 am
Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:01 am I've no idea what you mean.
you can't sit in meditation for 30 minutes twice a day


you have to insist on constantly seeing inconstancy
Yeah, right speech. Okay. No problem. Doesn't change the fact of the error that I brought up for discussion. You're sweeping the inconvenient truth under the carpet.
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:08 am You're sweeping the inconvenient truth under the carpet.
being lukewarm is not religion


hence your results don't come
Jack19990101
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

Post by Jack19990101 »

Mr. Seek wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:13 pm ... Buddhism promises the ending of dukkha (suffering or stress), yet its practitioners still encounter it?

Let's put the mind games about perception and identification aside just for a moment.
Even an egg needs like 21 days to hatch.
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Dan74
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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It's not easy to change habits of many lifetimes. Takes dedication. Did you think it was going to be easy?
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pegembara
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

Post by pegembara »

Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:18 am
pegembara wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:05 am There is enough physical pain in life already. There is no need to add mental pain on top of it.
So, there is no escape from physical pain. For that, you need another approach like pain killers and medical treatment even as an arahant.

However there are many who are in good physical condition but still suffer psychologically with the mental arrow stuck in.
OK, obviously, but still: fact is, we've got texts that advertise the [full and immediate] cessation of dukkha. So the question is, has that ever been achieved, even to a sufficient degree? Was the Buddha OK with being poisoned? Were his chief disciples OK with being murdered? Are we as serious practicioners OK with living in hardship, experiencing sore backs, having to eat, drink, work, sleep, wear warm clothes, etc.? Doesn't seem like we're free from any of that.

How do I go about convincing myself or others that this practice leads to the cessation of dukkha, when clearly the reality of it is different?

Why advertise that this brings the [full and immediate] cessation of dukkha? Why not just limit the advertising to, for example, ending unnecessary craving and perplexity?
The problem is ageing, sickness and death ...
"I, too, monks, before my Awakening, when I was an unawakened bodhisatta, being subject myself to birth, sought what was likewise subject to birth. Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, I sought [happiness in] what was likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement. The thought occurred to me, 'Why do I, being subject myself to birth, seek what is likewise subject to birth? Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, why do I seek what is likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement? What if I, being subject myself to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, were to seek the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding? What if I, being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, were to seek the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less,, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding?'
The question is whether you believe that the Buddha had indeed found the solution to this problem ie. freedom from ageing, sickness and death!. That it is most of us that continue to seek solutions that are basically unsolvable ie. all that is born will die or change if you like. Those are the rules of the game and you lose the moment you agree to play by its rules. That will be your "reality".
"Then, monks, being subject myself to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, seeking the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding, I reached the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeking the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding, I reached the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'
Then comes this statement of why the path is not for most. The raw truth that you seek with no false promises or advertising as you claimed-
"Then the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. [3] But this generation delights in attachment, is excited by attachment, enjoys attachment. For a generation delighting in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoying attachment, this/that conditionality & dependent co-arising are hard to see. This state, too, is hard to see: the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding. And if I were to teach the Dhamma and others would not understand me, that would be tiresome for me, troublesome for me.'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

There is dukkha and the ending of dukkha through the fading of passion and delight.
"Bhikkhus, all is burning. And what is the all that is burning?

"The mind is burning, ideas are burning, mind-consciousness is burning, mind-contact is burning, also whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with mind-contact for its indispensable condition, that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs.

"He finds estrangement in the mind, finds estrangement in ideas, finds estrangement in mind-consciousness, finds estrangement in mind-contact, and whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with mind-contact for its indispensable condition, in that too he finds estrangement.

"When he finds estrangement, passion fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated. When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated. He understands: 'Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived out, what can be done is done, of this there is no more beyond.'"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
Last edited by pegembara on Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:26 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Dan74
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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If I told you that following some intense practice 11 years ago, I had glimpsed that promised liberation, would you believe me?

No, I wouldn't either.

But it does happen. Sometimes for quite some time and rarely, permanently.
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mjaviem
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:09 am It's not anguish, it's just a simple observation. If you attain realization and you still come across dukkha in your experience or world, well then that is dukkha being present, meaning dukkha hasn't ceased. Maybe you have chosen to work with it in a different way, sure, but it's still there for everyone else, it's the very fabric of the universe. Even if you have somehow turned immortal, omnipotent, omniscient, an arahant, whatever, you're still stuck in a place where the very opposite is the norm. You continue to go through that.
...
If you attain realization and come across someone in pain or sad or feeling frustrated or in despair or whatever you know the truth that there is suffering because of craving and that through the N8P this craving leading to suffering would end. You can even teach about this.
Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:09 am ...
I'll give you an example. Say I'm a noble, a very lavish king. I live lavishly and practice virtue; I have manners and I'm educated. But everyone else around me is a broke uncivilized muggle. Would this be satisfactory for me in any way?
...
No as the opposite where everyone else is also lavish and educated would not be satisfactory either. Nothing can bring lasting satisfaction that's why the wise let go this futile search of happiness on things and people and ideas and songs and flavors, etc. They see no point in expecting things to be one way or another.
Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:09 am ...
They teach others because that's their mode of livelihood, because that's just what they do; they give teachings to people and continue their duty as contemplating ascetics, and in return they get requisites like food and shelter. Is there dukkha there in that situation? Yes! They're teaching, they're working, they're begging, they're living. They are living in a reality that is not "perfect". Their world is dukkha. The laymen need teaching, the alms bowls need food put in them, the robes need to be sewn, the novice monks need to be disciplined, the rival sectarians need to be refuted, the suttas need to be recited, requisites like mosquito repellent need to be acquired, etc. What madness! This is DUKKHA SUPREME!
...
The reality is the way it is. That's what they see, they have no expectations about what they see. To give teachings, to contemplate, ascetism, getting food and shelter, to work, to live, that's all the way it is. They don't have an expectation of a perfect reality, they see reality as correct. The world is not theirs, they are not attached to the world in any way. Basic needs are not a cause of suffering because they don't wish to get rid of them. It's only madness for those who crave a different world and don't see it as correct.
Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:09 am ... If you're teaching out of compassion, as a realized person, is it then not the case that you were or are being moved by the dukkha of others? In other words, dukkha is still present. If not with you, then with others. Can compassion exist without there being dukkha present? No. Compassion is a reaction. I see you in dukkha and therefore out of compassion decide to do something to help you. Again, this is all DUKKHA. In such a scenario, there is dukkha present in the reality of a realized person. Dukkha has not ceased. It is very much present.
...
They are not moved by others in pain or despair or any suffering. They help because they are free from greed, hatred and delusion. It's the correct way of acting and they act correctly, they do what has to be done. Suffering is not present for them, what is present is deep insight of how things are.
Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:09 am ...

What other reason might be there for someone enlightened to teach others? I don't know. But if he has to teach anyone, then that's dukkha. One, because he has to put in the effort. And two, because he's in a world where people are lacking, where people need teaching; he's not in a world where people are already learned and already enlightened. They're lacking, say, wisdom. They are in dukkha, whether subtle or gross. And the arahant is right there in the middle, like a clean lotus flower in a yucky pond. Has the pond ceased to exist just because the lotus has risen above it? No. The pond exists, and the lotus is in it. Which is the issue I brought forth with this topic. Buddhism advertses the cessation of dukkha, yet dukkha is still encountered by enlightened Buddhists, to say nothing of unenlightened Buddhists.
If having to teach is the case it is not suffering for them. The effort does not bring suffering to them, they see it as the way things are. People lacking wisdom is not a cause of dukkha for them because they don't crave for people to be wise. The yucky pond is not seen as theirs, they stopped "being someone unpolluted in the middle of all the murk", they just stopped being anything. There's simply no lotus there and they can see this.

The teachings of the Buddha do not advertise or promise anything. They simply show the truth of this world so we don't fool ourselves.
Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:35 am MN 141 bro and many other chunks of the canon. Dukkha is explained as literally everything and anything, and it's the cessation of that very same dukkha that is being advertised as possible. I'm not making it up.
...
Everthing and anything is unsatisfactory, Everything and anything that is affected by clinging is also suffering.
Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:35 am ...
Successful Buddhist practicioners at their moment of realization don't typically disintegrate into fairy dust and disappear from reality, taking all the dukkha with them.

I'm not against Buddhism by saying all of this, I'm just against false advertising. I probably wouldn't mind if the practice, goal, fruit, etc., is advertised simply as the end of unnecessary craving [for sensuality], the end of spiritual perplexity, etc. This is in stark contrast to "the end of dukkha", as if dukkha will just magically disappear when one attains unbinding.
They don't disintegrate, they simply realize the truth that there were so much confusion to the point of believing there was someone listening, someone loving, someone feeling, someone knowing, someone discriminating who had sandals and good intentions and a life.

The teaching is for the end of all craving. With no craving there's no suffering and this is not magic, this is the one thing that is not an illusion.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Mr. Seek
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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pegembara wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:48 am
Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:18 am
pegembara wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:05 am There is enough physical pain in life already. There is no need to add mental pain on top of it.
So, there is no escape from physical pain. For that, you need another approach like pain killers and medical treatment even as an arahant.

However there are many who are in good physical condition but still suffer psychologically with the mental arrow stuck in.
OK, obviously, but still: fact is, we've got texts that advertise the [full and immediate] cessation of dukkha. So the question is, has that ever been achieved, even to a sufficient degree? Was the Buddha OK with being poisoned? Were his chief disciples OK with being murdered? Are we as serious practicioners OK with living in hardship, experiencing sore backs, having to eat, drink, work, sleep, wear warm clothes, etc.? Doesn't seem like we're free from any of that.

How do I go about convincing myself or others that this practice leads to the cessation of dukkha, when clearly the reality of it is different?

Why advertise that this brings the [full and immediate] cessation of dukkha? Why not just limit the advertising to, for example, ending unnecessary craving and perplexity?
The problem is ageing, sickness and death ...
Yeah, when talking about dukkha is inconvenient. Otherwise that's literally Buddhism's favorite word. The 4NT, for example, don't all start with "death", they start with "dukkha". Usually everything is thrown under the banner of dukkha.
pegembara wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:48 am
"I, too, monks, before my Awakening, when I was an unawakened bodhisatta, being subject myself to birth, sought what was likewise subject to birth. Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, I sought [happiness in] what was likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement. The thought occurred to me, 'Why do I, being subject myself to birth, seek what is likewise subject to birth? Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, why do I seek what is likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement? What if I, being subject myself to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, were to seek the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding? What if I, being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, were to seek the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less,, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding?'
The question is whether you believe that the Buddha had indeed found the solution to this problem ie. freedom from ageing, sickness and death!. That it is most of us that continue to seek solutions that are basically unsolvable ie. all that is born will die or change if you like. Those are the rules of the game and you lose the moment you agree to play by its rules. That will be your "reality".
I do believe that the Buddha came upon some kind of a solution, to something. The problem is that 2500 years later there is literally an unlimited amount of variations on his teaching, to the point where we have to act like scholars half of the time in order to make sense out of it.

I don't mind hard, cold facts, like "no, all of this is impossible, you're going to keep on encountering dukkha regardless of what you do or don't do". I don't mind that. I might not mind if all dukkha is unsolvable. I'll stomach it. What I do mind however is someone advertising that they've got the cessation of dukkha covered, when they don't. No, I'm not necessarily saying that the Buddha lied. There are suttas which don't describe the full-on cessation of all dukkha, but describe something else as the fruit, like the end of craving for sensuality and becoming, for example. That's OK. There are however other texts like MN 141 that make bold claims about how everything and anything is dukkha, and how that dukkha can be ceased. That's the problem. I'm trying to separate the wheat from the chaff, and check whether half of the wheat is missing. That's what I'm trying to do. And it does seem like half of the wheat is missing, so I'm asking how other people feel about this, how they're dealing with this fact.
pegembara wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:48 am
"Then, monks, being subject myself to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, seeking the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding, I reached the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeking the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding, I reached the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'
Then comes this statement of why the path is not for most. The raw truth that you seek with no false promises or advertising as you claimed-
"Then the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. [3] But this generation delights in attachment, is excited by attachment, enjoys attachment. For a generation delighting in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoying attachment, this/that conditionality & dependent co-arising are hard to see. This state, too, is hard to see: the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding. And if I were to teach the Dhamma and others would not understand me, that would be tiresome for me, troublesome for me.'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

There is dukkha and the ending of dukkha through the fading of passion and delight.
"Bhikkhus, all is burning. And what is the all that is burning?

"The mind is burning, ideas are burning, mind-consciousness is burning, mind-contact is burning, also whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with mind-contact for its indispensable condition, that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs.

"He finds estrangement in the mind, finds estrangement in ideas, finds estrangement in mind-consciousness, finds estrangement in mind-contact, and whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with mind-contact for its indispensable condition, in that too he finds estrangement.

"When he finds estrangement, passion fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated. When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated. He understands: 'Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived out, what can be done is done, of this there is no more beyond.'"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
One sentence caught my eye from those quotes: "And if I were to teach the Dhamma and others would not understand me, that would be tiresome for me, troublesome for me." Yeah, so, like, this basically goes around to what I said earlier about teaching. Dukkha is still present. The possibility for dukkha to intensify is also present.
Dan74 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:25 am It's not easy to change habits of many lifetimes. Takes dedication. Did you think it was going to be easy?
It's not about habits per say but about the world, reality, or experience that one is situated in. From what kind of people are around you to what kind of organism you are; everyone's basic needs, etc.; the limitations and downsides of life.
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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mjaviem wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:15 am
Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:09 am ...

What other reason might be there for someone enlightened to teach others? I don't know. But if he has to teach anyone, then that's dukkha. One, because he has to put in the effort. And two, because he's in a world where people are lacking, where people need teaching; he's not in a world where people are already learned and already enlightened. They're lacking, say, wisdom. They are in dukkha, whether subtle or gross. And the arahant is right there in the middle, like a clean lotus flower in a yucky pond. Has the pond ceased to exist just because the lotus has risen above it? No. The pond exists, and the lotus is in it. Which is the issue I brought forth with this topic. Buddhism advertses the cessation of dukkha, yet dukkha is still encountered by enlightened Buddhists, to say nothing of unenlightened Buddhists.
If having to teach is the case it is not suffering for them. The effort does not bring suffering to them
What about statements from the Buddha after his enlightenment such as "And if I were to teach the Dhamma and others would not understand me, that would be tiresome for me, troublesome for me"? There is dukkha in that situation. There is the possibility for more dukkha to arise, and for dukkha to intensify. In that case, would it be correct to say that the Buddha has made dukkha cease? No.

Also, for the people who are hell-bent on how living arahants don't experience mental dukkha, or how they don't even perceive dukkha: Let me ask you then, what kind of feeling or sensation is the dukkha that the Buddha refers to in that sentence? Obviously it's not quite physical now is it? He's saying that he can go through [mental] dukkha, i.e. that he's not quite free from it, that it still exists as a possibility, as something in the world, that it has not ceased.

OP: I'm not debating whether any of this is true or false, I'm asking how people are dealing with the fact that this is true.

PS: I'm not talking about this with the intention of causing distress. I'm not doing it out of disrespect for the Dhanma. I'm doing it out of respect for all the three jewels. The Buddha's critical attitude towards "anything seen, heard, sensed and cognized" must be upheld. Also, an interesting quote:
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:53 am
Dan74 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:25 am It's not easy to change habits of many lifetimes. Takes dedication. Did you think it was going to be easy?
It's not about habits per say but about the world, reality, or experience that one is situated in. From what kind of people are around you to what kind of organism you are; everyone's basic needs, etc.; the limitations and downsides of life.
Practice has taught me not to focus on the world (unless I am able to effect a positive change), but on how I deal with it. In that way, every situation is a practice opportunity, especially the challenging ones.
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:09 am They are living in a reality that is not "perfect". Their world is dukkha. The laymen need teaching, the alms bowls need food put in them, the robes need to be sewn, the novice monks need to be disciplined, the rival sectarians need to be refuted, the suttas need to be recited, requisites like mosquito repellent need to be acquired, etc.
So how would you want life to be? Those things aren't suffering. If one is mindful while doing them, they are neutral.
Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:35 am First noble truth: [everything is] dukkha.
That's an incorrect translation—the correct translation of the First Noble Truth is: there is suffering.
Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:26 am Also, for the people who are hell-bent on how living arahants don't experience mental dukkha, or how they don't even perceive dukkha: Let me ask you then, what kind of feeling or sensation is the dukkha that the Buddha refers to in that sentence? Obviously it's not quite physical now is it? He's saying that he can go through [mental] dukkha, i.e. that he's not quite free from it, that it still exists as a possibility, as something in the world, that it has not ceased.
He is simply saying it would be bothersome. He's human, after all. Meditating is pleasant, for example, but having to travel on foot for 100 days would be bothersome, whether one is Enlightened or not.
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

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samseva wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:37 am
Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:09 am They are living in a reality that is not "perfect". Their world is dukkha. The laymen need teaching, the alms bowls need food put in them, the robes need to be sewn, the novice monks need to be disciplined, the rival sectarians need to be refuted, the suttas need to be recited, requisites like mosquito repellent need to be acquired, etc.
So how would you want life to be? Those things aren't suffering. If one is mindful while doing them, they are neutral.
For one who has attained to the cessation of dukkha? Well... There being no dukkha? Yeah. Because that's what "cessation of dukkha" implies. No dukkha. Or, at the very least, if that's not possible, then it'd be cool for there to be no obvious, gross forms of dukkha. But if that's the case, then, it wouldn't be "the cessation of dukkha" proper.
samseva wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:37 am
Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:35 am First noble truth: [everything is] dukkha.
That's an incorrect translation—the correct translation of the First Noble Truth is: there is suffering.
"Everything is" is not a translation, no, but it represents how dukkha is understood in Buddhism. Becoming, non-becoming, all of the issues described in MN 141, etc., all of this is dukkha, all of conditioned reality is dukkha.

When it is said that birth is dukkha, do you really think that it's just the childbearing pains that are being referred to? No. Everything is being referred to. All of life. Everything. Being born is dukkha. Having to go through life is dukkha. Even the ecstatic rapture and pleasure (sukha) felt in meditation is referred to as dukkha for the one who is fully awakened.
samseva wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:37 am
Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:26 am Also, for the people who are hell-bent on how living arahants don't experience mental dukkha, or how they don't even perceive dukkha: Let me ask you then, what kind of feeling or sensation is the dukkha that the Buddha refers to in that sentence? Obviously it's not quite physical now is it? He's saying that he can go through [mental] dukkha, i.e. that he's not quite free from it, that it still exists as a possibility, as something in the world, that it has not ceased.
He is simply saying it would be bothersome. He's human, after all. Meditating is pleasant, for example, but having to travel on foot for 100 days would be bothersome, whether one is Enlightened or not.
That's precisely what dukkha is. The fact that it's bothersome (at best) to have to go through the things I mentioned above, pretty much all at the same time. It's why we practice: to achieve the cessation of dukkha. That's what's being advertised, yet no Buddhist is achieving it. Hence this topic, to see how people feel, whether they're aware and OK with this, how are they dealing with it, etc.
Last edited by Mr. Seek on Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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samseva
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Re: How do you deal with the fact that...

Post by samseva »

I don't think you consider it as such, but suffering is not on or off—it's varying degrees of intensity. There are some who suffer immensely, from unwholesome kamma and actions during their life, being in prison for life, drug addicts—while some suffer only 10% or even 1% of what similar people experience.

What the teachings offer is to first avoid the things which lead to immense amounts of suffering—and then, the more and more you develop the Path, the less and less you suffer.
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