Knowledge of ending

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
josaphatbarlaam
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Re: Knowledge of ending

Post by josaphatbarlaam »

PeterC86 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:43 pm
josaphatbarlaam wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:38 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:10 amIn other words, you say that abandoning apparent 'bad' desires leads to the final apparent 'good' desire, which is then abandoned because it is fulfilled.
So your problem is that you don't believe in a distinction between good and bad?
Yes, and this is a not a problem because I don't believe in them, but it is a problem because the majority of the world believes in them. And this majority of the world makes up the legislation, they determine the economy, they determine how we look and behave towards other people.

And you know where this problem comes from? Dhammas; people believing they know what is true and what isn't; people believing that they can make the distinction between good and bad, or wholesome and unwholesome, or skillful means and unskillful means...or what have you. Everybody obsessed with 'wanting to know', because knowledge gives power. But if knowledge comes from ignorance, isn't this knowledge not of dependent origination? Yes, but pssst, don't tell this to someone else, because so long as they believe that we know, we have all the power.
So why do you believe in dependent origination as some magical Creator God that creates everything based on a misinterpretation of the suttas, but not in say that famous verse 183 of the Dhammapda "Eschew evil, do good, purify the mind---this is the teaching of all buddhas." ???

I mean the idea that the distinction between good and bad is created by dependent origination is the moat goofy absurd wrong interpretation of DO I have ever seen so far. Its certainly not stated in the suttas. Traditional interpretation of DO in Asia is that its trying to explain how/why rebirth happens. Even off secular wstern buddhist misinterpretation that DO is trying to explain the big bang or quantum mechanics (lol) or something like that, they never arrive at the absursity of saying the concept of good and evil is created by DO!
PeterC86 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:43 pm So instead of having compassion for each other and growing together, we grow further apart from each other, because everybody is pointing to each other with a Dhamma in their hands.
And now there is a contradiction because you reject any distinction between good and bad yet now are lamented about people lacking compassion.
PeterC86
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Re: Knowledge of ending

Post by PeterC86 »

josaphatbarlaam wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:15 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:43 pm
josaphatbarlaam wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:38 pm

So your problem is that you don't believe in a distinction between good and bad?
Yes, and this is a not a problem because I don't believe in them, but it is a problem because the majority of the world believes in them. And this majority of the world makes up the legislation, they determine the economy, they determine how we look and behave towards other people.

And you know where this problem comes from? Dhammas; people believing they know what is true and what isn't; people believing that they can make the distinction between good and bad, or wholesome and unwholesome, or skillful means and unskillful means...or what have you. Everybody obsessed with 'wanting to know', because knowledge gives power. But if knowledge comes from ignorance, isn't this knowledge not of dependent origination? Yes, but pssst, don't tell this to someone else, because so long as they believe that we know, we have all the power.
So why do you believe in dependent origination as some magical Creator God that creates everything based on a misinterpretation of the suttas, but not in say that famous verse 183 of the Dhammapda "Eschew evil, do good, purify the mind---this is the teaching of all buddhas." ???

I mean the idea that the distinction between good and bad is created by dependent origination is the moat goofy absurd wrong interpretation of DO I have ever seen so far. Its certainly not stated in the suttas. Traditional interpretation of DO in Asia is that its trying to explain how/why rebirth happens. Even off secular wstern buddhist misinterpretation that DO is trying to explain the big bang or quantum mechanics (lol) or something like that, they never arrive at the absursity of saying the concept of good and evil is created by DO!
PeterC86 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:43 pm So instead of having compassion for each other and growing together, we grow further apart from each other, because everybody is pointing to each other with a Dhamma in their hands.
And now there is a contradiction because you reject any distinction between good and bad yet now are lamented about people lacking compassion.
Yes, and this is a not a problem because I don't believe in them, but it is a problem because the majority of the world believes in them. And this majority of the world makes up the legislation, they determine the economy, they determine how we look and behave towards other people.

And you know where this problem comes from? Dhammas; people believing they know what is true and what isn't; people believing that they can make the distinction between good and bad, or wholesome and unwholesome, or skillful means and unskillful means...or what have you. Everybody obsessed with 'wanting to know', because knowledge gives power. But if knowledge comes from ignorance, isn't this knowledge not of dependent origination? Yes, but pssst, don't tell this to someone else, because so long as they believe that we know, we have all the power.

So instead of having compassion for each other and growing together, we grow further apart from each other, because everybody is pointing to each other with a Dhamma in their hands. Someone says to another; "It is not that, it is this." And the other says to someone; "No it is not this, it is that." And you ask, "Is this where it is?" And somebody points to you and says "It's his" And you say, "What's mine?"And somebody else says, "Well what is?" And you say, "Oh my God Am I here all alone?"
josaphatbarlaam
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Re: Knowledge of ending

Post by josaphatbarlaam »

PeterC86 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:21 pm Yes, and this is a not a problem because I don't believe in them, but it is a problem because the majority of the world believes in them.
So now you don't believe in dependent origination as creating everything even abstract things but the rest of the world believes that and this causes you a problem? But the rest of the world doesn't believe that.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Knowledge of ending

Post by Coëmgenu »

PeterC86 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:21 pmYes, and this is a not a problem because I don't believe in them, but it is a problem because the majority of the world believes in them. And this majority of the world makes up the legislation, they determine the economy, they determine how we look and behave towards other people.
It is easier to put shoes on your own feet than it is to cover all the ground in soft leather.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
un8-
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Re: Knowledge of ending

Post by un8- »

PeterC86 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:12 pm ...

Here's the thing, there's no use falling into speculation. The entire purpose of the noble eightfold path is to overcome the 5 hindrances, attain jhana and then attain insight and see for yourself.

You can't attain jhana if your mind is constantly pulling into different directions by obsessions. If you can't sit down for one hour, you're obsessed about something, and that means you won't ever attain jhana which means you'll never see for yourself. So there is no need to speculate, just follow the instructions the Buddha gave you.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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