Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Ceisiwr »

SDC wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:34 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:17 pm
SDC wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:57 pm
Like I said in the other thread about urination and meditation, the issue seems to have more to do with suttas interfering with common assumptions regarding meditation in general, most notably that the experience is so intense and fragile that a person cannot possibly move during.
Not being able to move during Jhana wouldn’t be the sign of it being fragile.
Needless to say, I completely disagree.
Being totally absorbed into a meditation subject isn’t fragility. It takes great mastery over the mind. The alternative, less so.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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SDC
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by SDC »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:47 pm
SDC wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:34 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:17 pm

Not being able to move during Jhana wouldn’t be the sign of it being fragile.
Needless to say, I completely disagree.
Being totally absorbed into a meditation subject isn’t fragility. It takes great mastery over the mind. The alternative, less so.
So then movement shouldn’t be an issue.

We’re clearly worlds apart on this.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Ceisiwr »

SDC wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:54 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:47 pm
SDC wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:34 pm

Needless to say, I completely disagree.
Being totally absorbed into a meditation subject isn’t fragility. It takes great mastery over the mind. The alternative, less so.
So then movement shouldn’t be an issue.

We’re clearly worlds apart on this.
I think we are talking past each other. Movement shouldn’t be an issue no, since the 5 senses are temporarily shut down.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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SDC
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by SDC »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:58 pm I think we are talking past each other. Movement shouldn’t be an issue no, since the 5 senses are temporarily shut down.
I won’t object if this has been your experience, but what description of jhana supports a shutdown of senses?
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Ceisiwr »

SDC wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:48 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:58 pm I think we are talking past each other. Movement shouldn’t be an issue no, since the 5 senses are temporarily shut down.
I won’t object if this has been your experience, but what description of jhana supports a shutdown of senses?
I imagine you are familiar with most if not all of my arguments by now. The Jhana pericope being better translated as “secluded from sense objects” is one of them. The non-dual state of the kasinas is another. Sound being a thorn the third and so on.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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SDC
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by SDC »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:54 pm
SDC wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:48 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:58 pm I think we are talking past each other. Movement shouldn’t be an issue no, since the 5 senses are temporarily shut down.
I won’t object if this has been your experience, but what description of jhana supports a shutdown of senses?
I imagine you are familiar with most if not all of my arguments by now. The Jhana pericope being better translated as “secluded from sense objects” is one of them. The non-dual state of the kasinas is another. Sound being a thorn the third and so on.
I’m not familiar with those arguments. Perhaps you made them in one of the meditation sections of the forum, in which case I would have easily missed them since I rarely check in down there. Fair enough if that is your position, and does confirm my suspicions that we are worlds apart on this.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Ceisiwr »

SDC wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:03 pm
Yes I imagine yours is akin to Ven. Nyanamoli’s view of Jhana, which i disagree with.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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SDC
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by SDC »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:17 pm
SDC wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:03 pm
Yes I imagine yours is akin to Ven. Nyanamoli’s view of Jhana, which i disagree with.
Yes, but not just because I think he’s cool (which he is), but because I have found tremendous consistency in his descriptions of jhana, along with some solid support for them in the suttas.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Ceisiwr »

SDC wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:57 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:17 pm
SDC wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:03 pm
Yes I imagine yours is akin to Ven. Nyanamoli’s view of Jhana, which i disagree with.
Yes, but not just because I think he’s cool (which he is), but because I have found tremendous consistency in his descriptions of jhana, along with some solid support for them in the suttas.
Well I’d be surprised if that wasn’t your position.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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SDC
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by SDC »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:11 pm
SDC wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:57 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:17 pm

Yes I imagine yours is akin to Ven. Nyanamoli’s view of Jhana, which i disagree with.
Yes, but not just because I think he’s cool (which he is), but because I have found tremendous consistency in his descriptions of jhana, along with some solid support for them in the suttas.
Well I’d be surprised if that wasn’t your position.
I’d imagine you would be after I’ve spent years in the same vein as he and Ven. Nanavira. I’m sure such a departure would make the evening news :tongue:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
atipattoh
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by atipattoh »

SDC wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:48 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:58 pm I think we are talking past each other. Movement shouldn’t be an issue no, since the 5 senses are temporarily shut down.
I won’t object if this has been your experience, but what description of jhana supports a shutdown of senses?
AN 9.34 Nibbānasukhasutta on kāmehi -> kāmaguṇā
“Reverend, there are these five kinds of sensual stimulation.
Pañcime, āvuso, kāmaguṇā.

What five?
Katame pañca?
Sights …
Sounds known by the ear…

Touches known by the body that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.

These are the five kinds of sensual stimulation.
Ime kho, āvuso, pañca kāmaguṇā.

The pleasure and happiness that arise from these five kinds of sensual stimulation is called sensual pleasure.

Yaṁ kho, āvuso, ime pañca kāmaguṇe paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṁ somanassaṁ, idaṁ vuccatāvuso, kāmasukhaṁ.

…. (Jhana)

While a mendicant is in such a meditation, should perceptions and attentions accompanied by sensual pleasures beset them, that’s an affliction for them.

Tassa ce, āvuso, bhikkhuno iminā vihārena viharato kāmasahagatā saññāmanasikārā samudācaranti, svassa hoti ābādho.
The moments of non "remaining within" is not absorption. SN40.1 Paṭhamajhānapañhāsutta, once there is sensual pleasures beset them, re-entry-and-remain is required.
While I was in that meditation, perceptions and attentions accompanied by sensual pleasures beset me.
Tassa mayhaṁ, āvuso, iminā vihārena viharato kāmasahagatā saññāmanasikārā samudācaranti.

Then the Buddha came up to me with his psychic power and said, ‘Moggallāna, Moggallāna!

Don’t neglect the first absorption, brahmin! Settle your mind in the first absorption; unify your mind and immerse it in the first absorption.’
Mā, brāhmaṇa, paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ pamādo, paṭhame jhāne cittaṁ saṇṭhapehi, paṭhame jhāne cittaṁ ekodiṁ karohi, paṭhame jhāne cittaṁ samādahā’ti.

And so, after some time … I entered and remained in the first absorption.
So khvāhaṁ, āvuso, aparena samayena vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja vihāsiṁ.
Nine Progressive Meditative Attainments on kāmaguṇā ceases
….
If someone should say, ‘I do not know or see where sensual pleasures cease’,
‘Kattha kāmā nirujjhanti, ke ca kāme nirodhetvā nirodhetvā viharanti—

They should be told:
Ahametaṁ na jānāmi ahametaṁ na passāmī’ti, iti yo evaṁ vadeyya, so evamassa vacanīyo:

‘Reverend, it’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures ( <- 5 senses), secluded from unskillful qualities ( <- unwholesome mind object), (what is left is through wholesome mind object -> ) enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.

‘idhāvuso, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.

That’s where sensual pleasures cease.
’Ettha kāmā nirujjhanti, te ca kāme nirodhetvā nirodhetvā viharantī’ti.
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by SDC »

atipattoh wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:09 am
Exactly. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures. Ceisiwr’s position is that there is a shutdown of senses.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
atipattoh
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by atipattoh »

SDC wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:24 am
atipattoh wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:09 am
Exactly. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures. Ceisiwr’s position is that there is a shutdown of senses.
AN9.33, it ceases, unless you are saying cease =/= shutdown (conventional speaking). As per AN9.34, sensual pleasures has only 5
Last edited by atipattoh on Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by samseva »

SDC wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:24 am Exactly. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures. Ceisiwr’s position is that there is a shutdown of senses.
This part of the description is before entering jhāna (not during).
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by mikenz66 »

I think Atipattoh's post is consistent with Bhikkhu Sujato and other totally-absorbed jhana advocates here:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/ka ... ujato/9449
Sujato wrote:
Frankk wrote: That is, your translation reads to me, that in first jhāna there is no sensory stimuli from the 5 senses. Is that what you mean?
Exactly. When kāma is used in plural form like this, it usually means “sensual stimulation”. Of course there’s a range of contexts, and it’s not always easy to pin down the exact sense. But in jhana it means that there is no sense activity.
There are these five kinds of sensual stimulation.
Pañca kho ime, māṇava, kāmaguṇā.
https://suttacentral.net/mn99/en/sujato ... ript=latin
In the end, one assumes that the totally-absorbed jhana advocates and the not-so-absorbed jhana advocates have looked at the texts, reasoned out their interpretation in good faith, and are not likely to change their mind:
Dhammanando wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 11:55 pm... this is a matter on which my view is settled and on which I'm not open to changing my mind. As far as I can tell this is the case with you too. That is, if you were open to changing your mind, I think your lengthy exchanges on Discourse Central with venerables Sujāto and Brahmali, and Sylvester (especially Sylvester) would have been more than enough to persuade you to do so.
Not that it is not necessarily useful to discuss it, of course... :reading:

:heart:
Mike
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