Hi,
Rearranging these in AN9.34
Touches known by the body that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.
Into
{ Arousing -> sensual } -> { agreeable, pleasant } -> { likable, desirable }
Arousing -> sensual --> 5 senses ayatana (kāmaguṇā)
Agreeable, pleasant --> kāmasukhā
Likable, desirable --> Kāmacchanda
Arousing comes from external object
MN80 Vekhanasasutta
The pleasure and happiness that arises from these five kinds of sensual stimulation is called sensual pleasure.
Yaṁ kho, kaccāna, ime pañca kāmaguṇe paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṁ somanassaṁ idaṁ vuccati kāmasukhaṁ.
So there is the saying: ‘From the senses comes sensual pleasure. From sensual pleasure comes the best kind of sensual pleasure, which is said to be the best thing there.’”
Iti kāmehi kāmasukhaṁ, kāmasukhā kāmaggasukhaṁ tattha aggamakkhāyatī”ti.
I don’t see how it is possible to read kāmehi kāmasukhaṁ as B Bodhi translated, “Thus sensual pleasure (arises)
through sensual pleasures”; when follows by "kāmasukhā kāmaggasukhaṁ", make B Bodhi's translation on very strange. Here, kāmehi does not appear to be sensual pleasure, tather, "sensual pleasure (arises) through senses".
SDC wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:15 am
Yes, sensual
pleasures cease. I don’t disagree. But nowhere does it say that the
āyatana (senses) cease
Yes, it doesn’t says all six; but combination of the sutta I link to in my first post plus MN80, does point to 5 sense bases cease.
6 -> 5 kāmehi + 1 { dhammehi : akusalehi 0.5 (unwholesome mind object) + kusala 0.5 (wholesome mind object) }
Thus, kāmehi is rather refer to the whole string, { Arousing -> sensual } -> { agreeable, pleasant } -> { likable, desirable } of the 5 senses, that is kāmaguṇā, the 5 strands of kāma, that cease.
Sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.
Cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā,
...
Touches known by the body that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.
Kāyaviññeyyā phoṭṭhabbā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā—
Piyarūpā, enticing materiality, that appear after desirable in all 5 bases, and that “From the senses comes sensual pleasure.”, then there should be no 5 senses stimuli for no sensual pleasure to arise.
These 5 bases, each is strand of cord of sensual, that each, if splits to two segments
Arousing -> sensual -> pleasant
Enticing materiality -> (desirable, likable)
Enticing materiality looks interesting isn't it. It appears to say something happen internally.
The sutta that Mike link to,
MN99
Rapture that depends on the five kinds of sensual stimulation is like a fire that depends on grass and logs as fuel.
Seyyathāpi, māṇava, tiṇakaṭṭhupādānaṁ paṭicca aggi jalati tathūpamāhaṁ, māṇava, imaṁ pītiṁ vadāmi yāyaṁ pīti pañca kāmaguṇe paṭicca.
Rapture that’s apart from sensual pleasures and unskillful qualities is like a fire that doesn’t depend on grass and logs as fuel.
Seyyathāpi, māṇava, nissaṭṭhatiṇakaṭṭhupādāno aggi jalati tathūpamāhaṁ, māṇava, imaṁ pītiṁ vadāmi yāyaṁ pīti aññatreva kāmehi aññatra akusalehi dhammehi.
And what is rapture that’s apart from sensual pleasures and unskillful qualities?
Katamā ca, māṇava, pīti aññatreva kāmehi aññatra akusalehi dhammehi?
It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
Idha, māṇava, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi …pe… paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.
This is rapture that’s apart from sensual pleasures and unskillful qualities.
Ayampi kho, māṇava, pīti aññatreva kāmehi aññatra akusalehi dhammehi.
Arousing comes from external object. And these 5 kāmaguna cease, as the fire "doesn’t depend on grass and logs as fuel". Practically, how is that possible for no object for burning, yet there is fire; and this metaphor is used for rapture. Strange isn't it. Not exactly. Here it says kāmaguṇā, does not include the sixth, "stimuli" from "external" mind base.
So, if the 5 bases cease, i don't see how walking is possible during "enter and remain" in Jhana. Skillful in mastery of entering and exiting, is then a different story.
~~ metta ~~~