Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

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frank k
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Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by frank k »

Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by form »

He is correct. One has to come out of jhanas to walk.
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samseva
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by samseva »

He didn't use circular reasoning, he made a Sutta reference, which checks out.

Did you even look up the Sutta references?
Anālayo wrote:the expression ‘unification of the mind’ is not confined to absorption concentration, since the same expression occurs in relation to walking and standing (AN II 14)
(1) Bhikkhus, if a bhikkhu has gotten rid of longing and ill will while walking; if he has abandoned dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and remorse, and doubt; if his energy is aroused without slackening; if his mindfulness is established and unmuddled; if his body is tranquil and undisturbed; if his mind is concentrated and one-pointed, then that bhikkhu is said to be ardent and to dread wrongdoing; he is constantly and continuously energetic and resolute while walking.

(2) If a bhikkhu has gotten rid of longing and ill will while standing

Carato cepi, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno abhijjhābyāpādo vigato hoti, thinamiddhaṁ … uddhaccakukkuccaṁ … vicikicchā pahīnā hoti, āraddhaṁ hoti vīriyaṁ asallīnaṁ, upaṭṭhitā sati asammuṭṭhā, passaddho kāyo asāraddho, samāhitaṁ cittaṁ ekaggaṁ, carampi, bhikkhave, bhikkhu evaṁbhūto ‘ātāpī ottāpī satataṁ samitaṁ āraddhavīriyo pahitatto’ti vuccati.

Ṭhitassa cepi, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno abhijjhābyāpādo vigato hoti, …
—AN II 14 (PTS)/AN 4.12
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SDC
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by SDC »

I didn’t follow the link in the OP and don’t really understand what the issue is here, but this bit from AN 3.63 is explicit that one can walk in jhana:
… But, Master Gotama, what is the celestial high and luxurious bed that at present you gain at will, without trouble or difficulty?”
“Here, brahmin, when I am dwelling in dependence on a village or town, in the morning I dress, take my bowl and robe, and enter that village or town for alms. After the meal, when I have returned from the alms round, I enter a grove. I collect some grass or leaves that I find there into a pile and then sit down. Having folded my legs crosswise and straightened my body, I establish mindfulness in front of me. Then, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I enter and dwell in the first jhāna, which consists of rapture and pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by thought and examination. With the subsiding of thought and examination, I enter and dwell in the second jhāna, which has internal placidity and unification of mind and consists of rapture and pleasure born of concentration, without thought and examination. With the fading away as well of rapture, I dwell equanimous and, mindful and clearly comprehending, I experience pleasure with the body; I enter and dwell in the third jhāna of which the noble ones declare: ‘He is equanimous, mindful, one who dwells happily.’ With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous passing away of joy and dejection, I enter and dwell in the fourth jhāna, neither painful nor pleasant, which has purification of mindfulness by equanimity.

“Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is celestial. If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is celestial. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is celestial. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my celestial high and luxurious bed. This is that celestial high and luxurious bed that at present I can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty.”
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by josaphatbarlaam »

form wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:05 pm He is correct. One has to come out of jhanas to walk.
even buddha himself has to?
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by SarathW »

Perhaps this is like the mental state we have when driving.
Some times I drive from home to work and can't remember that I was driving.
:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by samseva »

SDC wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:28 am I didn’t follow the link in the OP and don’t really understand what the issue is here, but this bit from AN 3.63 is explicit that one can walk in jhana:
It's explicit because the English is explicit. The translation is possibly not correct.

We discussed this for multiple pages in frank's previous thread.

It was also discussed in this thread on DhammaWheel.
And in this topic on SuttaCentral.

Like I mention in the thread, it's a small obscure passage in a single Sutta. If walking while jhāna were possible, it would be mentioned more than once in the Suttas.
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by josaphatbarlaam »

samseva wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:40 am
SDC wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:28 am I didn’t follow the link in the OP and don’t really understand what the issue is here, but this bit from AN 3.63 is explicit that one can walk in jhana:
It's explicit because the English is explicit. The translation is possibly not correct.

We discussed this for multiple pages in frank's previous thread.

It was also discussed in this thread on DhammaWheel.
And in this topic on SuttaCentral.

Like I mention in the thread, it's a small obscure passage in a single Sutta. If walking while jhāna were possible, it would be mentioned more than once in the Suttas.
I don't think this is the only sutta, because when I said
josaphatbarlaam wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:36 am
form wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:05 pm He is correct. One has to come out of jhanas to walk.
even buddha himself has to?
its because I had instantly thought of a sutta where Buddha says he is in jhana while walking, and I hadn't read SDC's post...and I don't believe its this same sutta, because I think its in Majjhima Nikaya or Sutta Nipata. If I'm right, then its not just one sutta claiming this. But I don't remember what sutta it is.
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by samseva »

josaphatbarlaam wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:54 am its because I had instantly thought of a sutta where Buddha says he is in jhana while walking, and I hadn't read SDC's post...and I don't believe its this same sutta, because I think its in Majjhima Nikaya or Sutta Nipata. If I'm right, then its not just one sutta claiming this. But I don't remember what sutta it is.
In those threads, on DhammaWheel and SuttaCentral, and for those members in the threads, only AN 3.63 was found with that passage. There seems to be only that Sutta supposedly describing jhāna while walking. If you find another, mention it and post it here.
josaphatbarlaam
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by josaphatbarlaam »

samseva wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:40 am And in this topic on SuttaCentral.
None of these discussions in reality discusses anything but only pretends to. They never explain why they think the grammar is misunderstood. I will assume that their argument is something like that when he says "Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth,..." that he means the "if" as a hypothetical and never actually does walk back and forth. Because they did such a bad job explaining their objection that I have to guess, (since they think they are so smart that I should accept whatever their argument is without them having to explain it.)

For instance, the best explanation there is from Sylvester (the only one it seems to even try to explain anything) and he (I'm assuming his pronouns) says that Bhikkhu Bodhi understood that the phrase “evaṃbhūto caṅkamāmi” as a periphrastic construction, thus “while I walk in that state”; but Sylvester disagrees that it is a "periphrastic construction" and would render it "Having become thus, if I pace." He then declares "Then, the problem goes away."

However, he is dead wrong (that the problem goes away). Given the context of the preceding paragraph I would still understand "Having become thus" as "Having entered jhana" not as "having become Buddha" (which is his trick to slight-of-hand the "problem" away). Whether its a "periphrastic construction" or not is really in truth irrelevant; its the context that makes it mean what it means.
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by confusedlayman »

Ur body is temp paralysed when in 1st jhana itself... body and 5 sense are not thwre.. how cN u take reference of something that is not in awareness?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by samseva »

josaphatbarlaam wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:35 am They never explain why they think the grammar is misunderstood.
There is though:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/an-3-64-walking-while-in-jhanas/3368/11
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/an-3-64-walking-while-in-jhanas/3368/21
josaphatbarlaam wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:35 am I will assume that their argument is something like that when he says "Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth,..." that he means the "if" as a hypothetical and never actually does walk back and forth. Because they did such a bad job explaining their objection that I have to guess, (since they think they are so smart that I should accept whatever their argument is without them having to explain it.)
The issue is knowing from the Pāḷi if the Buddha is in jhāna and he actually starts walking, while still in jhāna—or if he emerges from jhāna and starts walking, and comments on the quality of his state of mind.

That latter seems much more likely, especially, like I described above, considering this is the only passage, in one Sutta, that supposedly describes walking while in jhāna.
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by form »

josaphatbarlaam wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:54 am
samseva wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:40 am
SDC wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:28 am I didn’t follow the link in the OP and don’t really understand what the issue is here, but this bit from AN 3.63 is explicit that one can walk in jhana:
It's explicit because the English is explicit. The translation is possibly not correct.

We discussed this for multiple pages in frank's previous thread.

It was also discussed in this thread on DhammaWheel.
And in this topic on SuttaCentral.

Like I mention in the thread, it's a small obscure passage in a single Sutta. If walking while jhāna were possible, it would be mentioned more than once in the Suttas.
I don't think this is the only sutta, because when I said
josaphatbarlaam wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:36 am
form wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:05 pm He is correct. One has to come out of jhanas to walk.
even buddha himself has to?
its because I had instantly thought of a sutta where Buddha says he is in jhana while walking, and I hadn't read SDC's post...and I don't believe its this same sutta, because I think its in Majjhima Nikaya or Sutta Nipata. If I'm right, then its not just one sutta claiming this. But I don't remember what sutta it is.
Maybe the first Jhana is possible or between the first and access concentration. I personally think unlikely for second or higher.
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by form »

samseva wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:00 am
josaphatbarlaam wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:54 am its because I had instantly thought of a sutta where Buddha says he is in jhana while walking, and I hadn't read SDC's post...and I don't believe its this same sutta, because I think its in Majjhima Nikaya or Sutta Nipata. If I'm right, then its not just one sutta claiming this. But I don't remember what sutta it is.
In those threads, on DhammaWheel and SuttaCentral, and for those members in the threads, only AN 3.63 was found with that passage. There seems to be only that Sutta supposedly describing jhāna while walking. If you find another, mention it and post it here.
Is that translated as walking meditation in bodhi version?
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by nirodh27 »

Interestingly, we have also the opinion of Bhikku Kumara in his book about Jhana and Samadhi which certainly is able to evaluate the Pali by himself.
Can we do the jhānas while walking? Is that possible? If we regard the jhānas as states of complete absorption in a single object, the question itself is absurd. However, if we go by the Suttas, the answer is yes, because the jhānas aren’t states of absorption, but acts of composure. Venāgapura Sutta (AN3.63) shows this.

Here, to a brahmin the Buddha says,
... there are three kinds of high and luxurious beds that at present I gain at will, without trouble or difficulty. What three? The celestial high and luxurious bed, the divine high and luxurious bed, and the noble high and luxurious bed. (Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation in NDB, p274.)
When asked by the brahmin what he means by the “celestial high and luxurious bed”, the Buddha describes in the usual formula how he abides engaging in the jhānas, and then says,
Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state (evaṁbhūto), if I walk back and forth (caṅkamāmi), on that occasion my walking back and forth is celestial.(50) If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is celestial. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is celestial. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my celestial high and luxurious bed. (NDB, p275.) [Emphasis and parentheses are added.]
This sutta shows that it’s possible to be in any of the four postures while engaging in the jhānas. It agrees with Abhidhamma Piṭaka’s definition of viharati in Jhāna·vibhaṅga: iriyati vattati pāleti yapeti yāpeti carati viharati. They all revolve around the same meanings: conduct (oneself), move about, behave, exist, be, survive, go on, go, live, abide, dwell, sojourn.

(50) Evaṁbhūto is literally “thus become”.
(51) If you think I am saying that engaging in the four jhānas is ordinary or easily achieved, please read my answer to a question on page 130 of Appendix 18: Questions & Answers.
As I have said elsewhere, if one thinks that Jhanas are deep absorption states, this passage must be reconciliated (the only possible strategy seems to "attack" the translation) or ignored. It is legit to think that the overwhelming evidence for deep absorption in the suttas warrants one to ignore this passage, after all the real problem are the two conflicting bigger pictures about Jhanas.

Another way to see the problem could be a suggestion by Alexander Wynne:
Thus the expression sato sampajāno in the third jhāna must denote a state of awareness different from the meditative absorption of the second jhāna (cetaso ekodibhāva). It suggests that the subject is doing something different from remaining in a meditative state, i.e. that he has come out of his absorption and is now once again aware of objects. The same is true of the word upek(k)hā: it does not denote an abstract ‘equanimity’, [but] it means to be aware of something and indifferent to it […] The third and fourth jhāna-s, as it seems to me, describe the process of directing states of meditative absorption towards the mindful awareness of objects.[51]
In this interpretation, it would not be possible to walk in second Jhana, but third and fourth jhana are no longer absorbed states, but states of wisdom about the objects of experience and that is indicated by the fact that there is Sati-Sampajanno. Of course if we see ekodibhava as not singleness but predominance, also second Jhana can be seen as a state in which walking is possible for a highly skilled/realized meditator. I'm sure that this debate has never been done before :rofl:
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