Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

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bodom
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by bodom »

form wrote: Is that translated as walking meditation in bodhi version?
SDC posted Bodhi's translation of AN 3.63.

Here is Sujato's translation:
When I’m practicing like this, if I walk meditation, at that time I walk like the gods. When I’m practicing like this, if I stand, at that time I stand like the gods. When I’m practicing like this, if I sit, at that time I sit like the gods. When I’m practicing like this, if I lie down, at that time I lie down like the gods. This is the high and luxurious bed of the gods that I get these days when I want, without trouble or difficulty.”
Here also is Bodhi's Foot Note on AN 3.63:
Mp says that his walking back and forth is celestial when, having entered the four jhānas, he walks back and forth; and his walking back and forth is celestial when, after emerging from the four jhānas, he walks back and forth. This seems to imply that walking can occur even with the mind in jhāna. This, however, is contradicted by the dominant understanding that jhāna is a state of uninterrupted absorption in an object, in which case intentional movements like walking would not be possible. Mp-ṭ explains the first case of Mp (walking after entering the jhānas) to mean that he walks back and forth immediately after emerging from the jhāna, while the second case (walking after emerging) to mean that he walks back and forth after having emerged some time earlier. The same explanation holds for the divine and the noble beds.
:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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samseva
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by samseva »

nirodh27 wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:48 am Interestingly, we have also the opinion of Bhikku Kumara in his book about Jhana and Samadhi which certainly is able to evaluate the Pali by himself.
Ven. Kumāra doesn't say anything new. He just quotes and describes AN 3.63, and talks a bit about the Abhidhamma. He doesn't even go over the Pāḷi of AN 3.63.
nirodh27 wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:48 am As I have said elsewhere, if one thinks that Jhanas are deep absorption states, this passage must be reconciliated (the only possible strategy seems to "attack" the translation) or ignored. It is legit to think that the overwhelming evidence for deep absorption in the suttas warrants one to ignore this passage, after all the real problem are the two conflicting bigger pictures about Jhanas.
Because a small obscure passage in one Sutta supposedly says the Buddha is walking while in jhāna, you then instantly and completely change your definition of jhāna?

Yes, it's not clear in the Pāḷi if the Buddha emerged from jhāna before walking. However, it is equally not explicitly said that he is in jhāna while walking. To consider either position as conclusive is basically an assumption.
Last edited by samseva on Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by samseva »

bodom wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:14 am Here also is Bodhi's Foot Note on AN 3.63:
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:Mp says that his walking back and forth is celestial when, having entered the four jhānas, he walks back and forth; and his walking back and forth is celestial when, after emerging from the four jhānas, he walks back and forth. This seems to imply that walking can occur even with the mind in jhāna. This, however, is contradicted by the dominant understanding that jhāna is a state of uninterrupted absorption in an object, in which case intentional movements like walking would not be possible. Mp-ṭ explains the first case of Mp (walking after entering the jhānas) to mean that he walks back and forth immediately after emerging from the jhāna, while the second case (walking after emerging) to mean that he walks back and forth after having emerged some time earlier. The same explanation holds for the divine and the noble beds.
:thumbsup:
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by form »

bodom wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:14 am
form wrote: Is that translated as walking meditation in bodhi version?
SDC posted Bodhi's translation of AN 3.63.

Here is Sujato's translation:
When I’m practicing like this, if I walk meditation, at that time I walk like the gods. When I’m practicing like this, if I stand, at that time I stand like the gods. When I’m practicing like this, if I sit, at that time I sit like the gods. When I’m practicing like this, if I lie down, at that time I lie down like the gods. This is the high and luxurious bed of the gods that I get these days when I want, without trouble or difficulty.”
Here also is Bodhi's Foot Note on AN 3.63:
Mp says that his walking back and forth is celestial when, having entered the four jhānas, he walks back and forth; and his walking back and forth is celestial when, after emerging from the four jhānas, he walks back and forth. This seems to imply that walking can occur even with the mind in jhāna. This, however, is contradicted by the dominant understanding that jhāna is a state of uninterrupted absorption in an object, in which case intentional movements like walking would not be possible. Mp-ṭ explains the first case of Mp (walking after entering the jhānas) to mean that he walks back and forth immediately after emerging from the jhāna, while the second case (walking after emerging) to mean that he walks back and forth after having emerged some time earlier. The same explanation holds for the divine and the noble beds.
:anjali:
Thank you sir.
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by auto »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:04 am Ur body is temp paralysed when in 1st jhana itself... body and 5 sense are not thwre.. how cN u take reference of something that is not in awareness?
maybe fix your fundamentals
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by confusedlayman »

auto wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:46 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:04 am Ur body is temp paralysed when in 1st jhana itself... body and 5 sense are not thwre.. how cN u take reference of something that is not in awareness?
maybe fix your fundamentals
what you mean by fundamentals?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by auto »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:21 pm what you mean by fundamentals?
what basic words mean according to the textbooks
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by SDC »

samseva wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:29 am Because a small obscure passage in one Sutta supposedly says the Buddha is walking while in jhāna, you then instantly and completely change your definition of jhāna?
I don’t think it changes any other description of jhana, just perhaps interferes with a common assumption of meditation in general.

I’m sure we could dedicate an entire thread to obscure passages that hold up entire interpretations, including those of the orthodoxy. IMO, lack of frequency is not a strong argument for whether or not a passage is trustworthy.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by samseva »

SDC wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:02 pm I’m sure we could dedicate an entire thread to obscure passages that hold up entire interpretations, including those of the orthodoxy. IMO, lack of frequency is not a strong argument for whether or not a passage is trustworthy.
It is important. You're suggesting it's not?

If jhāna is possible while walking... why is it said only once in a single passage, in over 10,000 pages of text?

And most importantly:

Yes, it's not clear in the Pāḷi if the Buddha emerged from jhāna before walking. However, it's equally not explicitly said that he is in jhāna while walking. So either position is an assumption.
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by robertk »

For those with mastery of jhana they can enter and leave at will in split seconds. So of course they can walk while entering and leaving. However this is not possible for someone absorbed in jhana for any length of time.
Sariputta became an arahat while fanning the Buddha and listening to a talk the Buddha gave to another monk- and sariputta , as I understand was also entering and leaving jhana states at this time.

https://www.nku.edu/~kenneyr/Buddhism/l ... el090.html
But the Venerable Sariputta continued to stay near the Master, at a cave called the Boar's Shelter (Sukarakhata-lena), depending on Rajagaha for his almsfood. Half a month after his ordination the Blessed One gave a discourse on the comprehension of feelings[6] to the Venerable Sariputta's nephew, the wandering ascetic Dighanakha. The Venerable Sariputta was standing behind the Master, fanning him. While following with his thoughts the progress of the discourse, as though sharing the food prepared for another, the Venerable Sariputta on that occasion reached the acme of "knowledge pertaining to a disciple's perfection and attained to Arahatship together with the fourfold analytical knowledge (patisambhida-ñana)."[7] And his nephew, at the end of the sermon, was established in the Fruition of Stream-entry.[8]
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

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samseva wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:19 am
SDC wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:02 pm I’m sure we could dedicate an entire thread to obscure passages that hold up entire interpretations, including those of the orthodoxy. IMO, lack of frequency is not a strong argument for whether or not a passage is trustworthy.
It is important. You're suggesting it's not?

If jhāna is possible while walking... why is it said only once in a single passage, in over 10,000 pages of text?
I’m not really sure what you mean by me “suggesting it’s not”. You’re the one who’s making the argument that if something isn’t mentioned frequently that it may not be as trustworthy. I’m saying that a lack of frequency does not necessarily imply a lack of significance. Throughout the MN, for instance, you have many descriptions unique to the particular context of those events and they are no less valuable just because they don’t appear repeatedly throughout the canon.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by samseva »

SDC wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:25 pm You’re the one who’s making the argument that if something isn’t mentioned frequently that it may not be as trustworthy.
I never said it's untrustworthy, I said it's inconclusive.
SDC wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:25 pm I’m saying that a lack of frequency does not necessarily imply a lack of significance.
I'm saying that: a lack—or rather, the complete absence of frequency—is still important.
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

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samseva wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:36 pm
SDC wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:25 pm I’m saying that a lack of frequency does not necessarily imply a lack of significance.
And I'm saying that: a lack—or rather, the complete absence of frequency—is still important.
It is certainly worth a mention, but to what end? A person should never deny the presence of skepticism, but that is going to apply equally to something found 100 times or even just one time if the person has no direct knowledge of what is being discussed. Seems to me that certain details are irrelevant to discernment and wisdom, and the establishment of samadhi to the level of jhana implies a great deal of both. So whether or not walking is possible during is of far less importance to that development IMO, and likely the reason it isn’t often mentioned.

Like I said in the other thread about urination and meditation, the issue seems to have more to do with suttas interfering with common assumptions regarding meditation in general, most notably that the experience is so intense and fragile that a person cannot possibly move during.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Ceisiwr »

SDC wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:57 pm
Like I said in the other thread about urination and meditation, the issue seems to have more to do with suttas interfering with common assumptions regarding meditation in general, most notably that the experience is so intense and fragile that a person cannot possibly move during.
Not being able to move during Jhana wouldn’t be the sign of it being fragile.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by SDC »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:17 pm
SDC wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:57 pm
Like I said in the other thread about urination and meditation, the issue seems to have more to do with suttas interfering with common assumptions regarding meditation in general, most notably that the experience is so intense and fragile that a person cannot possibly move during.
Not being able to move during Jhana wouldn’t be the sign of it being fragile.
Needless to say, I completely disagree.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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