Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:52 pmI'd also like to know how you understand vitakka-vicāra, before I offer a rebuttal regarding constant jhāna?
I view vitarkavicāra as pseudo-verbalized discursive narrative thought. You can offer a rebuttal against constant jhāna, but who here even seriously argues for constant jhāna? No one, it seems to me. What purpose does refuting constant jhāna serve here?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:59 pm I've declared the reason quite a few times actually. I keep saying, the point in SN 1.34 is what is removed and what is not removed. You've voiced that you don't understand what I'm saying in saying that, for instance when you say, "I really don't understand your insistence on this point." So I need to find a new way to say it.
Sorry, but this does not explain why the meaning of kāmā changes between texts whilst kāma remains the same. So far, to me, the assertion seems rather self serving and arbitrary. My lack of understanding is not in relation to your argument. I understand your argument. What I don't understand is why you keep insisting upon it since to me it seems rather flawed.
The actual semantic content of SN 1.34 says that the wise removes his thoughts of passion and says that it is not the beauties in the world that are removed. I read the kāmā removed in the jhāna pericope in numerous places as "thoughts of passion" despite it being in the singular in SN 1.34 and in the plural in the jhāna pericope. I do this based on the precedent in SN 1.34 as specifying that it is the thoughts of passion that are removed, not (consciousnesses generated by interaction with) the beauties and/or variegated things in the world.
Why does kāma mean the same in both texts, yet kāmā changes it's meaning? I agree that the text is saying that kāma must be removed, but it is also differentiating between kāma and kāmā too. This is part of what it is teaching, and adds to it's explanatory power when we come to how to actually abandon kāma via the Jhāna. If we have a text which discusses the difference between kāma and kāmā and then says that kāma must be removed, it's perfectly rational to look to the definitions and message of said sutta when we look at other texts which discuss how to actually abandon kāma by way of secluding from kāmā. So far you have not demonstrated why this should not be the case.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:11 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:52 pmI'd also like to know how you understand vitakka-vicāra, before I offer a rebuttal regarding constant jhāna?
I view vitarkavicāra as pseudo-verbalized discursive narrative thought. You can offer a rebuttal against constant jhāna, but who here even seriously argues for constant jhāna? No one, it seems to me. What purpose does refuting constant jhāna serve here?
It would be a reductio ad absurdum, which I'm sure you are familiar with being a Madhyamaka :tongue:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:11 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:52 pmI'd also like to know how you understand vitakka-vicāra, before I offer a rebuttal regarding constant jhāna?
I view vitarkavicāra as pseudo-verbalized discursive narrative thought. You can offer a rebuttal against constant jhāna, but who here even seriously argues for constant jhāna? No one, it seems to me. What purpose does refuting constant jhāna serve here?
What do you mean by "narrative thought"? Not something like "applied and sustained thought"?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:16 pmSorry, but this does not explain why the meaning of kāmā changes between texts whilst kāma remains the same.
Kāma and kāmā are the same word being subject to diverse inflections, in this case to do with enumeration. If an overt contrast between the singular and plural is not made in the immediate context of either kāma or kāmā appearing, there is no reason to believe that the singular and plural of this word have any difference other than enumeration. My phone is dying and autocorrect has been a nightmare. Give me a second to get on a computer.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:08 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:55 pmNo, it is for the following reason

Sense restraint > weakening of kāmacchanda > experiencing no lust due to sense restraint > experiencing no lusts > rapture and pleasure because no lusts > lust fully abandoned

When there is sense restraint, there is no lust. Seems then rather redundant to have the Jhāna as "seclusion from lusts" since that has already occurred.
I still think that it is you who are inadvertently artificially generating the redundancy. Just collapse elements 3 and 4 into one element 3 and remove the repetition.
Why is artificial? Sense restraint is without lust, so it is repetitive to then talk about seclusion from lusts in the Jhāna.
1) “And how, great king, does the bhikkhu guard the doors of his sense faculties? Herein, great king, having seen a form with the eye, the bhikkhu does not grasp at the sign or the details. Since, if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the eye, evil unwholesome states such as covetousness and grief might assail him, he practises restraint, guards the faculty of the eye, and achieves restraint over the faculty of the eye...Endowed with this noble restraint of the sense faculties, he experiences within himself an unblemished happiness. In this way, great king, the bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties.

2) “Endowed with this noble aggregate of moral discipline, this noble restraint over the sense faculties, this noble mindfulness and clear comprehension, and this noble contentment, he resorts to a secluded dwelling—a forest, the foot of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a cremation ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After returning from his alms-round, following his meals, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and sets up mindfulness before him.

“Having abandoned covetousness for the world, he dwells with a mind free from covetousness; he purifies his mind from covetousness. Having abandoned ill will and hatred, he dwells with a benevolent mind, sympathetic for the welfare of all living beings; he purifies his mind from ill will and hatred. Having abandoned dullness and drowsiness, he dwells perceiving light, mindful and clearly comprehending; he purifies his mind from dullness and drowsiness. Having abandoned restlessness and worry, he dwells at ease within himself, with a peaceful mind; he purifies his mind from restlessness and worry. Having abandoned doubt, he dwells as one who has passed beyond doubt, unperplexed about wholesome states; he purifies his mind from doubt. When he sees that these five hindrances have been abandoned within himself, gladness arises. When he is gladdened, rapture arises. When his mind is filled with rapture, his body becomes tranquil; tranquil in body, he experiences happiness; being happy, his mind becomes concentrated.

3)Quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, he enters and dwells in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought and filled with the rapture and happiness born of seclusion.
1) Sense restraint, non-experience of lust and joy because of that.

2) Hindrances temporarily abandoned, one of which is lust.

3) Seclusion from lusts, thus entering the 1st jhāna.

Sense restraint > weakening of kāmacchanda > experiencing no lust due to sense restraint > joy > hindrances, including lust, temporally abandoned > experiencing no lusts > rapture and pleasure because no lusts > lust fully abandoned


The seclusion from lusts is repetitve here, since that has already occurred with sense restraint. Alternatively, we have


Sense restraint > weakening of kāmacchanda > experiencing no lust due to sense restraint > joy > hindrances, including lust, temporally abandoned > seclusion from the senses > rapture and pleasure because of seclusion from the senses> lust fully abandoned


Notice as well the nimitta seems to make an appearance here.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:26 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:16 pmSorry, but this does not explain why the meaning of kāmā changes between texts whilst kāma remains the same.
Kāma and kāmā are the same word being subject to diverse inflections, in this case to do with enumeration. If an overt contrast between the singular and plural is not made in the immediate context of either kāma or kāmā appearing, there is no reason to believe that the singular and plural of this word have any difference other than enumeration. My phone is dying and autocorrect has been a nightmare. Give me a second to get on a computer.
I know they are, but that doesn't mean the Buddha didn't use them to refer to two different yet related things.
Kāma, m. [ts., cf. BHSD, SWTF, Encyclop. of Buddhism VI, 1 1996 s.v.; Hôb. s.v. ai], 1. (mostly in sg.) wish, desire, pleasure; 2. (in pl.) the objects of sensual pleasure viz. rūpa, sadda, gandha, rasa, phoṭṭhabba, cf. kāmaguṇa
Critical Pāli Dictionary
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:22 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:11 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:52 pmI'd also like to know how you understand vitakka-vicāra, before I offer a rebuttal regarding constant jhāna?
I view vitarkavicāra as pseudo-verbalized discursive narrative thought. You can offer a rebuttal against constant jhāna, but who here even seriously argues for constant jhāna? No one, it seems to me. What purpose does refuting constant jhāna serve here?
What do you mean by "narrative thought"? Not something like "applied and sustained thought"?
I understand that vitarka and vicāra alike are mental prerequisites for verbalization. Specifically, it is the vicāra that is the subverbal narrative, or discursive, thought. You asked me about vitarkavicāra as a compound, not the meaning of them individually. When vitarka is isolated, it is an initial subverbal mental reaction to an event at one of the six sense gates.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:49 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:22 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:11 pm I view vitarkavicāra as pseudo-verbalized discursive narrative thought. You can offer a rebuttal against constant jhāna, but who here even seriously argues for constant jhāna? No one, it seems to me. What purpose does refuting constant jhāna serve here?
What do you mean by "narrative thought"? Not something like "applied and sustained thought"?
I understand that vitarka and vicāra alike are mental prerequisites for verbalization. Specifically, it is the vicāra that is the subverbal narrative, or discursive, thought. You asked me about vitarkavicāra as a compound, not the meaning of them individually. When vitarka is isolated, it is an initial subverbal mental reaction to an event at one of the six sense gates.
Thank you. So when the Buddha had a narrative thought he went into Jhāna, since the hindrances were totally done away with for him. How then is he not constantly in Jhāna or, at the very least, constantly slipping in and out of Jhāna since kāmā as sense desires would also be gone? He would constantly be secluded, no?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:44 pmSense restraint is without lust, so it is repetitive to then talk about seclusion from lusts in the Jhāna.
1) “And how, great king, does the bhikkhu guard the doors of his sense faculties? Herein, great king, having seen a form with the eye, the bhikkhu does not grasp at the sign or the details. Since, if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the eye, evil unwholesome states such as covetousness and grief might assail him, he practises restraint, guards the faculty of the eye, and achieves restraint over the faculty of the eye...Endowed with this noble restraint of the sense faculties, he experiences within himself an unblemished happiness. In this way, great king, the bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties.

2) “Endowed with this noble aggregate of moral discipline, this noble restraint over the sense faculties, this noble mindfulness and clear comprehension, and this noble contentment, he resorts to a secluded dwelling—a forest, the foot of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a cremation ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After returning from his alms-round, following his meals, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and sets up mindfulness before him.

“Having abandoned covetousness for the world, he dwells with a mind free from covetousness; he purifies his mind from covetousness. Having abandoned ill will and hatred, he dwells with a benevolent mind, sympathetic for the welfare of all living beings; he purifies his mind from ill will and hatred. Having abandoned dullness and drowsiness, he dwells perceiving light, mindful and clearly comprehending; he purifies his mind from dullness and drowsiness. Having abandoned restlessness and worry, he dwells at ease within himself, with a peaceful mind; he purifies his mind from restlessness and worry. Having abandoned doubt, he dwells as one who has passed beyond doubt, unperplexed about wholesome states; he purifies his mind from doubt. When he sees that these five hindrances have been abandoned within himself, gladness arises. When he is gladdened, rapture arises. When his mind is filled with rapture, his body becomes tranquil; tranquil in body, he experiences happiness; being happy, his mind becomes concentrated.

3)Quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, he enters and dwells in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought and filled with the rapture and happiness born of seclusion.
1) Sense restraint, non-experience of lust and joy because of that.

2) Hindrances temporarily abandoned, one of which is lust.

3) Seclusion from lusts, thus entering the 1st jhāna.

Sense restraint > weakening of kāmacchanda > experiencing no lust due to sense restraint > joy > hindrances, including lust, temporally abandoned > experiencing no lusts > rapture and pleasure because no lusts > lust fully abandoned


The seclusion from lusts is repetitve here, since that has already occurred with sense restraint. Alternatively, we have


Sense restraint > weakening of kāmacchanda > experiencing no lust due to sense restraint > joy > hindrances, including lust, temporally abandoned > seclusion from the senses > rapture and pleasure because of seclusion from the senses> lust fully abandoned


Notice as well the nimitta seems to make an appearance here.
IMO, "Quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states," is not a new step. It is not something separate from the previous material. It is a summation of the previous paragraph starting at "Having abandoned covetousness for the world [...]." Thus "seclusion from lusts" is simply a summation of what has come before. It is like saying "Like this and like that (referring to what was just described), he enters." Therefore, I still think that it is you who are inadvertently producing the redundancy, not my interpretation.

Thus we get

1) Sense restraint, weakening of lust, and joy because of that.

2) Hindrances temporarily abandoned, one of which is lust.

3) Entering the 1st jhāna.

What did you allude to concerning the nimitta in the sutta?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:58 pmSo when the Buddha had a narrative thought he went into Jhāna,
No. I don't think that follows at all. Why do you think it follows?
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:58 pm How then is he not constantly in Jhāna or, at the very least, constantly slipping in and out of Jhāna since kāmā as sense desires would also be gone? He would constantly be secluded, no?
I gave an explanation to this already here. In what ways do you find it unsatisfactory?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:00 pm IMO, "Quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states," is not a new step. It is not something separate from the previous material. It is a summation of the previous paragraph starting at "Having abandoned covetousness for the world [...]." Thus "seclusion from lusts" is simply a summation of what has come before. It is like saying "Like this and like that (referring to what was just described), he enters." Therefore, I still think that it is you who are inadvertently producing the redundancy, not my interpretation.

Thus we get

1) Sense restraint, weakening of lust, and joy because of that.

2) Hindrances temporarily abandoned, one of which is lust.

3) Entering the 1st jhāna.

What did you allude to concerning the nimitta in the sutta?
I don't think it is a summation. If so it would mean that the completion of the prior state meant there was Jhāna, yet a strong case can be made that this doesn't always occur. The seclusion from the kāmā would then be an extra step. For example, the sotāpannas lack of Jhāna despite them having the prior state of abandoning the hindrances and being concentrated. Regarding the nimitta, it was this

"Having abandoned dullness and drowsiness, he dwells perceiving light, mindful and clearly comprehending; he purifies his mind from dullness and drowsiness."
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Coëmgenu »

Well, in some areas, we just have to accept that there are different ways to interpret these passages. I've had at least two meditation teachers who would identify that light, or more accurately one similar to it (as this text wasn't the one informing the exegeses), as the perception of the shining form of the rūpadhātu. It would come at a different stage if so, so maybe it is the nimitta in the Pāli version. In the Dhyānasūtra on Sitting, when the white bones shine, it is actually the white bones in front of you, the meditation subject, that shines, not an unseen mental image, according to that meditative orthodoxy.
若心久住是應禪法若得禪定即有三相身體和悅柔軟輕便白骨流光猶如白珂心得靜住
If the mind for a long time dwells there [on the white bones], the dharmas of the dhyāna will come to be. When the dhyāna is obtained, there are three signs of this. The physical body feels bliss, relaxation, and comfort. The white bones stream light, appearing as if they were white jade. The mind attains a calm abiding.
(T614.272a20 坐禪三昧經 "Seated Meditation Dhyānasūtra")

Nonetheless, certain aspects of the conversation have to happen in "connections," so I or you will make a thread there to discuss those things eventually I'll suspect. In the meantime, there's nothing wrong with me sharing certain opinions here and there, so long as they are never falsely presented as Theravādin.

As to the controverted point of whether it is a summation, that can be discussed to death here. I maintain that it is.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:12 pm Well, in some areas, we just have to accept that there are different ways to interpret these passages. I've had at least two meditation teachers who would identify the light as the perception of the shining form of the rūpadhātu. In the Dhyānasūtra, I have to find the specific one, when the white bones shine, it is actually the white bones in front of you, the meditation subject, that shines, not an unseen mental image, according to that meditative orthodoxy. Nonetheless, certain aspects of the conversation have to happen in "connections," so I or you will make a thread there to discuss those things eventually I'll suspect. In the meantime, there's nothing wrong with me sharing certain opinions here and there, so long as they are never falsely presented as Theravādin.

As to the controverted point of whether it is a summation, that can be discussed to death here. I maintain that it is.
Well I’m not saying it’s definitive evidence of nimitta in the texts, and it’s not something I wish to hotly discuss here. It was more of a passing comment. The main topic is more interesting to me. Do you think stream-enterers have Jhana?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by frank k »

Nicolas wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:00 am
Venāgapura Sutta (AN 3.63) wrote:I collect some grass or leaves that I find there into a pile and then sit down. Having folded my legs crosswise and straightened my body, I establish mindfulness in front of me. Then, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I enter and dwell in the first jhāna [...].
Argument against walking: why does the Buddha bother to collect some grass or leaves into a pile and to then sit down before entering the first jhana?

Because it's easier to do sitting jhana in a quiet place than walking jhana in an ordinary noisy place.

Also look at all 3 of the divine beds (1. jhana, 2. brahma vihara, 3. arahant enjoying their lack of defilements).
All 3 of them start with sitting on a pile of leaves.

Do you then think brahma viharas can only be done while sitting, and an arahant can only enjoy and reflect on his lack of defilements while he is sitting?
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