Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

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robertk wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:14 am For those with mastery of jhana they can enter and leave at will in split seconds. So of course they can walk while entering and leaving. However this is not possible for someone absorbed in jhana for any length of time.
Sariputta became an arahat while fanning the Buddha and listening to a talk the Buddha gave to another monk- and sariputta , as I understand was also entering and leaving jhana states at this time.

https://www.nku.edu/~kenneyr/Buddhism/l ... el090.html
But the Venerable Sariputta continued to stay near the Master, at a cave called the Boar's Shelter (Sukarakhata-lena), depending on Rajagaha for his almsfood. Half a month after his ordination the Blessed One gave a discourse on the comprehension of feelings[6] to the Venerable Sariputta's nephew, the wandering ascetic Dighanakha. The Venerable Sariputta was standing behind the Master, fanning him. While following with his thoughts the progress of the discourse, as though sharing the food prepared for another, the Venerable Sariputta on that occasion reached the acme of "knowledge pertaining to a disciple's perfection and attained to Arahatship together with the fourfold analytical knowledge (patisambhida-ñana)."[7] And his nephew, at the end of the sermon, was established in the Fruition of Stream-entry.[8]
Most likely correct explanation. :goodpost:
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by atipattoh »

mikenz66 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:58 am
There are these five kinds of sensual stimulation.
Pañca kho ime, māṇava, kāmaguṇā.
https://suttacentral.net/mn99/en/sujato ... ript=latin
I tried to find the link on desire to kāmaguṇā but unsuccessful; good material in this sutta.

~~ metta ~~~
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by SDC »

atipattoh wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:39 am
SDC wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:24 am
atipattoh wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:09 am
Exactly. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures. Ceisiwr’s position is that there is a shutdown of senses.
AN9.33, it ceases, unless you are saying cease =/= shutdown (conventional speaking). As per AN9.34, sensual pleasures has only 5
Yes, sensual pleasures cease. I don’t disagree. But nowhere does it say that the āyatana (senses) cease - not in the first four jhanas at least, and not as a goal in itself when it comes to the knowledge that is necessary for jhana to manifest.

The cessation of saḷāyatana (six sense base) is described in terms of dependent origination, and the fact that they are subject to cessation is a description of impermanence.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by SDC »

samseva wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:40 am
SDC wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:24 am Exactly. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures. Ceisiwr’s position is that there is a shutdown of senses.
This part of the description is before entering jhāna (not during).
So once jhana is entered there is no longer seclusion from sensual pleasures and unwholesome states? Once the third jhana is entered, thinking and pondering can return? Once the sphere of infinite space is entered, breathing resumes? In other words, the things that are said to be the basis of jhana, and cease on account of the degree to which it has been established, don’t stay that way as further degrees are developed?

Y’all should read MN 19 and tell me what the cowherd is doing once the crops are gone. Is he still following cows around, holding them in place, or is he sitting by a tree, knowing there is nowhere dangerous left for the cows to wander?

All this participation is cutting into my Study Group preparation time smh :geek:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by samseva »

SDC wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:25 am as further degrees are developed?
There's a good chance that's precisely what happens. More developed seclusion from sensual pleasures once in jhāna—and deeper levels of concentration, until concentration is to the point of one being ever more absorbed in the meditative experience (such as the arūpa-jhāna).
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by PeterC86 »

frank k wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:49 am Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... ng-to.html
Well, if so, I would say; let him/her.

If not, I would say; let him/her.
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by josaphatbarlaam »

PeterC86 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:28 pm
frank k wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:49 am Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... ng-to.html
Well, if so, I would say; let him/her.

If not, I would say; let him/her.
This brings up a good point. Ven. doesn't help distinguish between monks and nun's names in writing and most people don't know Pali grammar well enough to detwrmine if a name is male or female. Perhaps Ven. is not such a great prefix.
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by mikenz66 »

SDC wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:15 am Yes, sensual pleasures cease. I don’t disagree. But nowhere does it say that the āyatana (senses) cease - ...
Of course, that's a key point of contention. The argument by Bhikkhu Sujato (see the link I gave) is that, in that context, that's what the text means. I'm not expert enough to adjudicate but as I understand it, part of the argument revolves around differences between meanings of singular and plural (like dhamma/dhammā).

According to Ven Dhammanando and others, the disagreement over senses in jhāna dates back at least to the Third Council. It seems to me, therefore, that it would be rather simplistic for those on either "side" to claim that their conclusion is the "obviously correct" one.

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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Ceisiwr »

SDC wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:25 am ...
My argument, which has been made by others both ancient and modern, has been that kāmā (plural) refers to external sense objects. Therefore, in the jhāna pericope it is “secluded from sense objects” rather than “secluded from sensual pleasures”. For example, from SN 1.34.

"Na te kāmā yāni citrāni loke"

"Na te [demonstrative pronoun] kāmā [noun] yāni [relative pronoun] citrāni [adjective] loke."

"Not those [demonstrative pronoun] kāmā [noun] whatever [relative pronoun] are pretty [adjective] in the world."

"Na te kāmā yāni citrāni loke
Not those kāmā whatever are pretty in the world"


The "kāmā" here are external things in the world. Here they are said to be pretty, but there are also unpleasant kāmā too (gadflies, heat etc) as per MN 14. Kāmā then means sense objects, rather than the Abhidhamma definition of "sensual pleasures".

“And what is the power of concentration? Here, secluded from sense objects, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the first jhāna, which consists of rapture and pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by thought and examination."

As we know, the Jhānas can be a part of the step wise gradual entry into nibbāna
  • Step 1: Normal everyday human experience (Kāmaloka).
  • Step 2: Dropping the 5 senses. Only the mind and the subtle rūpa, here taken to mean the nimitta or mental image, remains (Rūpaloka).
  • Step 3: Dropping the subtle image (nimitta/rūpa). Only abstract concepts remain (Arūpaloka).
  • Step 4: Nirodha-samāpatti followed by Emptiness, Signless or Wishless contact.
  • Nibbāna.
Each step involves an emptying out of the mind. Between step 1 and 2, the 5 senses are emptied out. Between step 2 and 3, the image is emptied out and so on until pure emptiness and then letting go completely.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Ceisiwr »

"Ko ca, mahānāma, kāmānaṁ ādīnavo? Idha, mahānāma, kulaputto yena sippaṭṭhānena jīvikaṁ kappetiyadi muddāya yadi gaṇanāya yadi saṅkhānena yadi kasiyā yadi vaṇijjāya yadi gorakkhena yadi issatthena yadi rājaporisena yadi sippaññatarena, sītassa purakkhato uṇhassa purakkhato ḍaṁsamakasavātātapasarīsapasamphassehi rissamāno khuppipāsāya mīyamāno; ayampi, mahānāma, kāmānaṁ ādīnavo sandiṭṭhiko dukkhakkhandho kāmahetu kāmanidānaṁ kāmādhikaraṇaṁ kāmānameva hetu."

And what is the drawback of kāmānaṁ? It’s when a gentleman earns a living by means such as computing, accounting, calculating, farming, trade, raising cattle, archery, government service, or one of the professions. But they must face cold and heat, being hurt by the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, and reptiles, and risking death from hunger and thirst. This is a drawback of kāmānaṁ apparent in this very life, a mass of suffering caused by kāmānaṁ

And what is the drawback of sense objects? It’s when a gentleman earns a living by means such as computing, accounting, calculating, farming, trade, raising cattle, archery, government service, or one of the professions. But they must face cold and heat, being hurt by the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, and reptiles, and risking death from hunger and thirst. This is a drawback of sense objects apparent in this very life, a mass of suffering caused by sense objects.

Cūḷadukkhakkhandha sutta (MN 14).
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by SDC »

samseva wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:00 pm
SDC wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:25 am as further degrees are developed?
There's a good chance that's precisely what happens. More developed seclusion from sensual pleasures once in jhāna—and deeper levels of concentration, until concentration is to the point of one being ever more absorbed in the meditative experience (such as the arūpa-jhāna).
Nice to find some common ground. :thumbsup:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Coëmgenu »

I, to the extent of my knowledge of this forum, am likely the most pedantic one here. As an act of consummate pedantry, I will point out that when you say "of kāmānaṁ," that is a coinage from the Department of Redundancy Department. "Kāmānaṁ" is already innately plural and genitive. It's either "of (the) kāmas" or just "kāmānaṁ."

So the phrase segment "drawback of kāmānaṁ" would just be "kāmānaṁ drawback" and would be a lot harder to read, which is why it's uncommon to incorporate inflected forms of Pāli terms, such as kāmānaṁ, into an English sentence. The English grammar (and comprehensibility) becomes, ironically, compromised by the foreign inflections -- those same inflections that ensure precision in their root language.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by SDC »

mikenz66 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:29 pm
SDC wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:15 am Yes, sensual pleasures cease. I don’t disagree. But nowhere does it say that the āyatana (senses) cease - ...
… It seems to me, therefore, that it would be rather simplistic for those on either "side" to claim that their conclusion is the "obviously correct" one.

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It’s been quite a while since I participated with the intent to win an argument, or to be “right” among interlocutors. I post with the intention of making my position as clear and precise as possible. When I used to post for gain, it was far more trouble than it was worth. So when I post with a degree of surety it’s simply because I’ve put it together in a manner that I feel is most clear, within my capabilities, according to the topic at hand, not because I want to be “right”.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:03 pm I, to the extent of my knowledge of this forum, am likely the most pedantic one here. As an act of consummate pedantry, I will point out that when you say "of kāmānaṁ," that is a coinage from the Department of Redundancy Department. "Kāmānaṁ" is already innately plural and genitive. It's either "of (the) kāmas" or just "kāmānaṁ."

So the phrase segment "drawback of kāmānaṁ" would just be "kāmānaṁ drawback" and would be a lot harder to read, which is why it's uncommon to incorporate inflected forms of Pāli terms, such as kāmānaṁ, into an English sentence. The English grammar (and comprehensibility) becomes, ironically, compromised by the foreign inflections -- those same inflections that ensure precision in their root language.
I’m well aware it’s not quite correct, much like when I say “Jhanas”.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by pulga »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:34 pm

My argument, which has been made by others both ancient and modern, has been that kāmā (plural) refers to external sense objects. Therefore, in the jhāna pericope it is “secluded from sense objects” rather than “secluded from sensual pleasures”. For example, from SN 1.34.

"Na te kāmā yāni citrāni loke"

"Na te [demonstrative pronoun] kāmā [noun] yāni [relative pronoun] citrāni [adjective] loke."

"Not those [demonstrative pronoun] kāmā [noun] whatever [relative pronoun] are pretty [adjective] in the world."

"Na te kāmā yāni citrāni loke
Not those kāmā whatever are pretty in the world"
The full verse here reads:
Sankapparāgo purisassa kāmo
Na te kāmā yāni citrāni loke
Sankapparāgo purisassa kāmo
Titthanti citrāni tath'eva loke
Ath'ettha dhīrā vinayanti chandam
.
Sensual desires are not the various (or pretty) things in the world.
Lustful intention is a man's sensual desire.
The various (or pretty) things just stand there in the world.
But the wise dispel desire herein.

At least that's how I'd translate it.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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