Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:33 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:26 amIt is seclusion from kāmā, not kāma. Seclusion from the diverse/beauties in the world, not the lust for them.
As I've stated before, I don't find the argument that only the plural is used in the jhāna pericope convincing.
Why would you read kāmā in one as "external objects" but not in the other, when the verse is making it clear that kāmā are specific things?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Coëmgenu »

Because the material text of SN 1.34 explains that the removal is of saṅkapparāgo, not of citrāni loke. In the context of specifically SN 1.34, there is a distinction drawn between kāma and kāmā, but I see this as contextual and not universal. I don't think it means that all usages of the singular are saṅkapparāgo and that all usages of the plural refer to citrāni loke universally outside of this sutta. As such, I don't see a reason we must associate kāmā with citrāni loke in the jhāna pericope.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:38 am Because the material text of SN 1.34 explains that the removal is of saṅkapparāgo, not citrāni loke. In the context of specifically SN 1.34, there is a distinction drawn between kāma and kāmā, but I see this as contextual and not universal. I don't think it means that all usages of the singular are saṅkapparāgo and that all usages of the plural refer to citrāni loke universally outside of this sutta. As such, I don't see there is a reason we must associate kāmā with citrāni loke in the jhāna pericope.
On what basis is it contextual and not universal? It's not about getting rid of the kāmā. It's about seeing how there is a rapture and pleasure apart from them, which get's rid of lust for them.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Coëmgenu »

Because I don't think the point of SN 1.34 is to delineate between the singular and plural. I think the point is to clarify what is removed. I take the seclusion in the jhāna pericope as a removal of the same. You take it as a removal of citrāni loke. That the strict delineation between the singular and plural as only and strictly "saṅkapparāgo" and "citrāni loke" respectively is contextual and not universal, that is an opinion.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
atipattoh
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by atipattoh »

auto wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:44 pm
Hmm....
Rapture that depends on the five kinds of sensual stimulation is like a fire that depends on grass and logs as fuel.
But if you wish to discuss about sensual with regards to greed, hate and delusion, maybe you could post it in other thread that talk on this subject, if there is one, or open a new thread; i believe there are many interested in this subject.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:50 am Because I don't think the point of SN 1.34 is to delineate between the singular and plural. I think the point is to clarify what is removed. I take the seclusion in the jhāna pericope as a removal of the same. You take it as a removal of citrāni loke. That the strict delineation between the singular and plural as only and strictly "saṅkapparāgo" and "citrāni loke" respectively is contextual and not universal, that is an opinion.
An opinion based on what? You don't think part of the the point of the verse is to differentiate between two things? Seems clear to me that the verse is making a distinction, and that it is defining both of those things in turn. If we read these terms elsewhere, terms which were so central to the Dhamma, it's not a stretch at all to interpret them as having the same meaning. Kāma is always lust for things, everyone agrees, but when it comes to kāmā it is context specific? Doesn't seem likely. I agree that part of it is to show what needs removing. How that is done is left up to other suttas. Are we really to interpret the teaching as

"A wise person gives up desire for desires. How do you give up desire? You give up desires. How do you give up desires? You give up desire."

Clearly desire is only given up when a pleasure that is away from kāmā is experienced. If kāmā are not external things, I don't see how the teaching is even coherent.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Ceisiwr »

SDC wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:10 pm ...
Sorry for not directly addressing you. Much of what I was going to say to you I have already said by now, if you have been following.

:anjali:
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by SDC »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:23 am
SDC wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:10 pm ...
Sorry for not directly addressing you. Much of what I was going to say to you I have already said by now, if you have been following.

:anjali:
All good,C. Like I said, we’re quite far apart on this. Not that I don’t see value in trying to clarify our positions, but there is only so much that can be said on a given topic. Down the line I’m sure we can revisit this one. :smile:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Nicolas »

Venāgapura Sutta (AN 3.63) wrote:I collect some grass or leaves that I find there into a pile and then sit down. Having folded my legs crosswise and straightened my body, I establish mindfulness in front of me. Then, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I enter and dwell in the first jhāna [...].
Argument against walking: why does the Buddha bother to collect some grass or leaves into a pile and to then sit down before entering the first jhana?
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by waryoffolly »

Nicolas wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:00 am
Venāgapura Sutta (AN 3.63) wrote:I collect some grass or leaves that I find there into a pile and then sit down. Having folded my legs crosswise and straightened my body, I establish mindfulness in front of me. Then, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I enter and dwell in the first jhāna [...].
Argument against walking: why does the Buddha bother to collect some grass or leaves into a pile and to sit down before entering the first jhana?
It's not conclusive in my opinion. He could sit for the initial establishment of jhana and then walk after the jhana is stable, although your point does seem like the 'common sense' interpretation of this sutta to me. Personally though, I'm not particularly confident about the meaning of this sutta. The commentarial explanation (as has been quoted already by others) is jhana while walking. Also, AN 4.12 is very explicit that samahitam cittam ekaggam is while walking:
Suppose a mendicant has got rid of desire and ill will while walking, and has given up dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and remorse, and doubt. Their energy is roused up and unflagging, their mindfulness is established and lucid, their body is tranquil and undisturbed, and their mind is immersed in samādhi. Such a mendicant is said to be ‘keen and prudent, always energetic and determined’ when walking.

Carato cepi, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno abhijjhābyāpādo vigato hoti, thinamiddhaṁ … uddhaccakukkuccaṁ … vicikicchā pahīnā hoti, āraddhaṁ hoti vīriyaṁ asallīnaṁ, upaṭṭhitā sati asammuṭṭhā, passaddho kāyo asāraddho, samāhitaṁ cittaṁ ekaggaṁ, carampi, bhikkhave, bhikkhu evaṁbhūto ‘ātāpī ottāpī satataṁ samitaṁ āraddhavīriyo pahitatto’ti vuccati.
So it wouldn't be that huge of a jump to read AN 3.63 in a similar way.

(As an aside, check out that cool samadhi pericope ("āraddhaṁ hoti vīriyaṁ asallīnaṁ, upaṭṭhitā sati asammuṭṭhā, passaddho kāyo asāraddho, samāhitaṁ cittaṁ ekaggaṁ") for which there are two versions (other version is "pamuditassa pīti jāyati, pītimanassa kāyo passambhati, passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vedeti, sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati"), instances that I found are in {DN 2, DN 9, DN 10, DN 13, DN 33, DN 34, MN 4, MN 7, MN 19, MN 36, MN 40, MN 85, MN 100, SN 35.97, SN 35.134, SN 42.13, SN 47.10, SN 55.40, AN 3.40, AN 3.96, AN 3.131, AN 4.12, AN 5.26, AN 6.10, AN 8.11, AN 10.2, AN 11.2, AN 11.11, AN 11.12}. Note that some of these instances are right before jhana's.)

Curiously all three instances of evambhuto (AN 4.11, AN 4.12, AN 3.63) in the canon occur in the context of developing samadhi in all four postures. Almost makes me wonder if these suttas were originally a group compiled on the topic, and AN 3.63 somehow got separated from the rest-maybe it was in the fours originally because of the four postures?
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by BrokenBones »

Nicolas wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:00 am
Venāgapura Sutta (AN 3.63) wrote:I collect some grass or leaves that I find there into a pile and then sit down. Having folded my legs crosswise and straightened my body, I establish mindfulness in front of me. Then, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I enter and dwell in the first jhāna [...].
Argument against walking: why does the Buddha bother to collect some grass or leaves into a pile and to then sit down before entering the first jhana?
Sitting is the most conducive but jhana in all four postures would in my opinion be possible.

Think about Ananda... he achieved Arahantship, the supreme peace whilst changing postures... how much easier would attaining jhana be whilst walking.
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by pulga »

Vivicca is a gerund derived from the verb viviccati: to separate oneself, to become detached. Note that since walking, sitting, and the like require little thought they're conducive to the practice of mindfulness and awareness. Mindfulness and awareness is brought about through concentration. Ven. Ñanavira wrote an interesting letter to Mr. Dias about all this.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Ceisiwr »

SDC wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:57 am
All good,C. Like I said, we’re quite far apart on this. Not that I don’t see value in trying to clarify our positions, but there is only so much that can be said on a given topic. Down the line I’m sure we can revisit this one. :smile:
Yes, quite far. That’s ok though. I still see value in the non-absorbed approach.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Ceisiwr »

In order to get to absorption there will be a period of what the other side calls non-absorbed Jhana. Maybe now and again the non-absorbed folks could try the Ajahn Brahm etc method too? I mean, it can’t hurt can it?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:45 am In order to get to absorption there will be a period of what the other side calls non-absorbed Jhana. Maybe now and again the non-absorbed folks could try the Ajahn Brahm etc method too? I mean, it can’t hurt can it?
You're actually assuming that they haven't tried the absorbed method and subsequently rejected it as a dead end. I'm certainly not denying its allure and power... just questioning its worth.

The 'other side' as you call it is an altogether more subtle practice though no less powerful & alluring... it has to be in order to consciously discern, evaluate and abandon sensual pleasures in favour of a higher pleasure.

A jhana without that awareness being present is just pushing defilements to one side for a period of time after which they'll come roaring back.
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