Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:56 pm
If I were to modify your two bolded and italicized sections, I would do so like this:
1) It is not the world's diverse things which are the problem. Lust for them is the problem. A wise person therefore removes lust for them. How? By experiencing a rapture and bliss which is utterly alien to, or secluded from, lust. Only once jhāna with an absence of lust has been stabilized and practiced repeatedly is lust momentarily quenched outside of the jhāna, because only then have you experienced this unique state, second to Nibbāna in quenching ability and transformative power, and only after becoming an adept of the jhāna can you extend its aftereffects for a significant time.
It doesn't say "secluded from lust". It says "secluded from the world's diverse things", according to the person who is saying it (since they accept the definition of SN 1.34 here).
2) Jhāna is a lustless state. Becoming strong in the jhānas through frequent experience of them removes everyday lust encountered outside of the jhāna. How does the non-dhyānin experience jhāna for the first time to get this ball rolling? In a special contrived setting conducive to jhāna (not an everyday setting doing everyday things!), temporarily seclude yourself from lusts and distracting factors, fostering five factors while avoiding five hindrances. With the attainment of the jhāna, seclusion from lust becomes removal of lust while in the jhāna. Afterwards, this selfsame removal lingers even though the mediator is no longer in a jhāna, until it fades and experience is normal. The afflictions thunder back in. So how do you remove lusts in the longterm? Experience jhāna, the lustless state that hinders everyday lust that occurs after it for some time, and get good at extending that and entering at will in less contrived settings. Even better, experience Nibbāna, which has a more permanent transformative effect with regards to lust.
Not experiencing the activation of lust based upon pleasant contact, which leads to joy, is part of sense-restraint. There is no denying that, but this comes
before Jhāna. Said sense restraint is what the cultivates the weakening of kāmacchanda, sense desire. The desire for things. Then, once this has been developed one secludes from the kāmā and enters jhāna. Now, if kāmā here means external objects then we get
Sense restraint > weaning of kāmacchanda > experiencing no lust > not experiencing the 5 senses > rapture and pleasure apart from the 5 senses > lust fully abandoned.
If, however, kāmā here is simply the plural "lusts" then we get
Sense restraint > weakening of kāmacchanda > experiencing no lust > experiencing no lusts > rapture and pleasure because no lusts > lust fully abandoned.
Not experiencing kāma and kāmā is repetitive, if both simply mean subjective desire. I don't see how we can read kāmā here as anything but external objects of lust.
A question also arises. If the kāmā in the Jhāna pericope means "lusts", how then are the Buddha's and Arahants not in a constant state of Jhāna? I realise that you are a Mahāyānist, and so likely you believe that they always are in Jhāna, but how is this a sustainable position based upon the suttas and āgamas? In those texts it's clear that the Buddha and Arahants are not always in these attainments. This is easy to answer from my perspective, but rather perplexing from a non-absorbed Jhāna position.