Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:16 pmDo you think stream-enterers have Jhana?
I don't think they need to in order to be stream-entrants. There is a lot of precedent that they ought to, having experienced a moment of Nibbāna itself, higher and more refined than any jhāna. But the definition I use for stream-entrant is "bhūmika," or "one set forth on the bodhisattva bhūmis." This kind of realization is associated with the generation of great bodhicitta and a glimpse into "the highest emptiness," another term for Nibbāna, albeit Nibbāna as framed by a foreign sect. All the same, approaching Nibbāna/Nirvāṇa through emptiness and not having achieved a jhāna/dhyāna does seem odd.

I have no clue what the Pāli suttas say on this matter. I assume that they don't specify the necessity of jhāna for a stream-entrant. We could use that to tie this discussion back into at least Pāli suttas.

Also, more on why I believe "Quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states" is a summation: look at the grammar of the English rendering. It is describing the state that has been attained when moving/entering into the first jhāna. It is like "Like this, like that, he enters..." "Like this" has already been established in the past, as has "like that" in this example. It is not rendered as its own specific "step."
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:03 pm, edited 4 times in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
frank k
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by frank k »

robertk wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:14 am For those with mastery of jhana they can enter and leave at will in split seconds. So of course they can walk while entering and leaving. However this is not possible for someone absorbed in jhana for any length of time.
Sariputta became an arahat while fanning the Buddha and listening to a talk the Buddha gave to another monk- and sariputta , as I understand was also entering and leaving jhana states at this time.

https://www.nku.edu/~kenneyr/Buddhism/l ... el090.html
But the Venerable Sariputta continued to stay near the Master, at a cave called the Boar's Shelter (Sukarakhata-lena), depending on Rajagaha for his almsfood. Half a month after his ordination the Blessed One gave a discourse on the comprehension of feelings[6] to the Venerable Sariputta's nephew, the wandering ascetic Dighanakha. The Venerable Sariputta was standing behind the Master, fanning him. While following with his thoughts the progress of the discourse, as though sharing the food prepared for another, the Venerable Sariputta on that occasion reached the acme of "knowledge pertaining to a disciple's perfection and attained to Arahatship together with the fourfold analytical knowledge (patisambhida-ñana)."[7] And his nephew, at the end of the sermon, was established in the Fruition of Stream-entry.[8]
I can hear the sighs of relief from all the LBT (late buddhist texts) theravadans who can sleep at night now believing LBT doesn't contradict EBT (early ...).
Confirmation bias and cleverness can find an interpretation that eel wriggles out of any situation.

But ask yourself this.

1. Assuming you're correct, that Sariputta can enter and exit frozen stupor jhana in split seconds, still, what would that look like?
Sariputta would be stumbling around like a drunken fool, spending most of that time exiting and entering with no perception and control of his body.

Why would the Buddha in AN 3.63 be describing a highly skilled LBT redefinition of jhana walk around blissfully, instead of a simple ockhams razor interpretation that people skilled in jhanas can maintain at least a partial jhana and feel the mental and physical bliss while walking?

2. Let's say Sariputta can be a functional LBT jhana drunk, that he isn't stumbling around while walking, that he's able to enjoy the mental and physical bliss of upacara samadhi version of 4th jhana. In other words, he can enter and exit frozen stupor so fast it's negligible.
Then what's the difference between a highly skilled jhana master like Sariputta and an ordinary competent 4th jhana upacara samadhi?
If the sutta describes what sounds like 4th jhana upacara samadhi, have you considered maybe because it is upcara samadhi, and the frozen stupor appana is something completely foreign to the EBT?

Even in Vimuttimagga, which also relies on (an earlier than Vism.) version of Abhidhamma, their appana samadhi jhanas don't preclude body awareness and hearing sounds. In Vimt. appana samadhi means one is fixed in focus on Dharmic perceptions, free of hindrances. It means it's a purified jhana that will not be interrupted by any hindrance. Vism. redefines appana samadhi as a frozen stupor with no volition.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
User avatar
frank k
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by frank k »

I'm starting a new thread for AN 3.63.
I don't think anyone is contesting Analayo is using fallacious circular reasoning,
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Coëmgenu »

He wouldn't have to stumble "drunk"-looking. In the Abhidhammika conception of mind-moments, they are incredibly fast. Even consecutive mind-moments of jhānic experience without kāyavijñāna wouldn't make you fall necessarily, if great adepts of jhāna can truly exit at will like that.

Exiting the jhāna becomes an issue with no rūpa-derived consciousnesses, no? I suppose the generation of kāyavijñāna associated with bodily motion immediately stops the jhāna, making it only one or a few moments long?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5613
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by robertk »

frank k wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:15 pm
robertk wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:14 am For those with mastery of jhana they can enter and leave at will in split seconds. So of course they can walk while entering and leaving. However this is not possible for someone absorbed in jhana for any length of time.
Sariputta became an arahat while fanning the Buddha and listening to a talk the Buddha gave to another monk- and sariputta , as I understand was also entering and leaving jhana states at this time.

https://www.nku.edu/~kenneyr/Buddhism/l ... el090.html
But the Venerable Sariputta continued to stay near the Master, at a cave called the Boar's Shelter (Sukarakhata-lena), depending on Rajagaha for his almsfood. Half a month after his ordination the Blessed One gave a discourse on the comprehension of feelings[6] to the Venerable Sariputta's nephew, the wandering ascetic Dighanakha. The Venerable Sariputta was standing behind the Master, fanning him. While following with his thoughts the progress of the discourse, as though sharing the food prepared for another, the Venerable Sariputta on that occasion reached the acme of "knowledge pertaining to a disciple's perfection and attained to Arahatship together with the fourfold analytical knowledge (patisambhida-ñana)."[7] And his nephew, at the end of the sermon, was established in the Fruition of Stream-entry.[8]

I can hear the sighs of relief from all the LBT (late buddhist texts) theravadans who can sleep at night now believing LBT doesn't contradict EBT (early ...).
Confirmation bias and cleverness can find an interpretation that eel wriggles out of any situation.

But ask yourself this.

1. Assuming you're correct, that Sariputta can enter and exit frozen stupor jhana in split seconds, still, what would that look like?
Sariputta would be stumbling around like a drunken fool, spending most of that time exiting and entering with no perception and control of his body.

Why would the Buddha in AN 3.63 be describing a highly skilled LBT redefinition of jhana walk around blissfully, instead of a simple ockhams razor interpretation that people skilled in jhanas can maintain at least a partial jhana and feel the mental and physical bliss while walking?

2. Let's say Sariputta can be a functional LBT jhana drunk, that he isn't stumbling around while walking, that he's able to enjoy the mental and physical bliss of upacara samadhi version of 4th jhana. In other words, he can enter and exit frozen stupor so fast it's negligible.
Then what's the difference between a highly skilled jhana master like Sariputta and an ordinary competent 4th jhana upacara samadhi?
If the sutta describes what sounds like 4th jhana upacara samadhi, have you considered maybe because it is upcara samadhi, and the frozen stupor appana is something completely foreign to the EBT?

Even in Vimuttimagga, which also relies on (an earlier than Vism.) version of Abhidhamma, their appana samadhi jhanas don't preclude body awareness and hearing sounds. In Vimt. appana samadhi means one is fixed in focus on Dharmic perceptions, free of hindrances. It means it's a purified jhana that will not be interrupted by any hindrance. Vism. redefines appana samadhi as a frozen stupor with no volition.
Processes arise and fall away quite quickly
see Vis. CHAPTER IV The Earth Kasióa
132. The explanation of the meaning here is this. When he emerges from the
first jhána and first of all adverts to the applied thought, then, next to the
adverting that arose interrupting the life-continuum, either four or five impulsions
impel with that applied thought as their object. Then there are two life-continuum
[consciousnesses]. Then there is adverting with the sustained thought as its
object and followed by impulsions in the way just stated. When he is able to
prolong his conscious process uninterruptedly in this way with the five jhána
factors, then his mastery of adverting is successful. But this mastery is found at
its acme of perfection in the Blessed One’s Twin Marvel (Paþis I 125), or for
others on the aforesaid occasions. There is no quicker mastery in adverting than
that.
133. The venerable Mahá-Moggallána’s ability to enter upon jhána quickly, as
in the taming of the royal nága-serpent Nandopananda (XII.106f.), is called
mastery in attaining.
134. Ability to remain in jhána for a moment consisting in exactly a fingersnap
or exactly ten finger-snaps is called mastery in resolving (steadying the
duration).
Ability to emerge quickly in the same way is called mastery in emerging.
135. The story of the Elder Buddharakkhita may be told in order to illustrate
both these last. [155] Eight years after his admission to the Community that elder
was sitting in the midst of thirty thousand bhikkhus possessed of supernormal
powers who had gathered to attend upon the sickness of the Elder Mahá-
Rohanagutta at Therambatthala. He saw a royal supaóóa (bird) swooping down
from the sky intending to seize an attendant royal nága-serpent as he was
getting rice-gruel accepted for the elder. The Elder Buddharakkhita created a
rock meanwhile, and seizing the royal nága by the arm, he pushed him inside it.
The royal supaóóa gave the rock a blow and made off. The senior elder remarked:
“Friends, if Rakkhita had not been there, we should all have been put to shame.”40
136. Mastery in reviewing is described in the same way as mastery in adverting;
for the reviewing impulsions are in fact those next to the adverting mentioned
there (§132).
137. When he has once acquired mastery in these five ways, then on emerging
from the now familiar first jhána he can regard the flaws in it in this way: “This
attainment is threatened by the nearness of the hindrances, and its factors are
weakened by the grossness of the applied and sustained thought.” He can
bring the second jhána to mind as quieter and so end his attachment to the first
jhána and set about doing what is needed for attaining the second.
138. When he has emerged from the first jhána, applied and sustained thought
appear gross to him as he reviews the jhána factors with mindfulness and full
awareness, while happiness and bliss and unification of mind appear peaceful.
Then, as he brings that same sign to mind as “earth, earth” again and again
40. What the story is trying to illustrate is the rapidity with which the elder entered
the jhána, controlled its duration, and emerged, which is the necessary preliminary to
the working of a marvel (the creation of a rock in this case; XII.57). The last remark
seems to indicate that all the others would have been too slow (see Vism-mhþ 150).
with the purpose of abandoning the gross factors and obtaining the peaceful
factors, [knowing] “now the second jhána will arise,” there arises in him
mind-door adverting with that same earth kasióa as its object, interrupting the
life-continuum. After that, either four or five impulsions impel on that same
object, the last one of which is an impulsion of the fine-material sphere belonging
to the second jhána. The rest are of the sense sphere of the kinds already stated (§74).
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Ontheway »

robertk wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:33 am
frank k wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:15 pm
robertk wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:14 am For those with mastery of jhana they can enter and leave at will in split seconds. So of course they can walk while entering and leaving. However this is not possible for someone absorbed in jhana for any length of time.
Sariputta became an arahat while fanning the Buddha and listening to a talk the Buddha gave to another monk- and sariputta , as I understand was also entering and leaving jhana states at this time.

https://www.nku.edu/~kenneyr/Buddhism/l ... el090.html

I can hear the sighs of relief from all the LBT (late buddhist texts) theravadans who can sleep at night now believing LBT doesn't contradict EBT (early ...).
Confirmation bias and cleverness can find an interpretation that eel wriggles out of any situation.

But ask yourself this.

1. Assuming you're correct, that Sariputta can enter and exit frozen stupor jhana in split seconds, still, what would that look like?
Sariputta would be stumbling around like a drunken fool, spending most of that time exiting and entering with no perception and control of his body.

Why would the Buddha in AN 3.63 be describing a highly skilled LBT redefinition of jhana walk around blissfully, instead of a simple ockhams razor interpretation that people skilled in jhanas can maintain at least a partial jhana and feel the mental and physical bliss while walking?

2. Let's say Sariputta can be a functional LBT jhana drunk, that he isn't stumbling around while walking, that he's able to enjoy the mental and physical bliss of upacara samadhi version of 4th jhana. In other words, he can enter and exit frozen stupor so fast it's negligible.
Then what's the difference between a highly skilled jhana master like Sariputta and an ordinary competent 4th jhana upacara samadhi?
If the sutta describes what sounds like 4th jhana upacara samadhi, have you considered maybe because it is upcara samadhi, and the frozen stupor appana is something completely foreign to the EBT?

Even in Vimuttimagga, which also relies on (an earlier than Vism.) version of Abhidhamma, their appana samadhi jhanas don't preclude body awareness and hearing sounds. In Vimt. appana samadhi means one is fixed in focus on Dharmic perceptions, free of hindrances. It means it's a purified jhana that will not be interrupted by any hindrance. Vism. redefines appana samadhi as a frozen stupor with no volition.
Processes arise and fall away quite quickly
see Vis. CHAPTER IV The Earth Kasióa
132. The explanation of the meaning here is this. When he emerges from the
first jhána and first of all adverts to the applied thought, then, next to the
adverting that arose interrupting the life-continuum, either four or five impulsions
impel with that applied thought as their object. Then there are two life-continuum
[consciousnesses]. Then there is adverting with the sustained thought as its
object and followed by impulsions in the way just stated. When he is able to
prolong his conscious process uninterruptedly in this way with the five jhána
factors, then his mastery of adverting is successful. But this mastery is found at
its acme of perfection in the Blessed One’s Twin Marvel (Paþis I 125), or for
others on the aforesaid occasions. There is no quicker mastery in adverting than
that.
133. The venerable Mahá-Moggallána’s ability to enter upon jhána quickly, as
in the taming of the royal nága-serpent Nandopananda (XII.106f.), is called
mastery in attaining.
134. Ability to remain in jhána for a moment consisting in exactly a fingersnap
or exactly ten finger-snaps is called mastery in resolving (steadying the
duration).
Ability to emerge quickly in the same way is called mastery in emerging.
135. The story of the Elder Buddharakkhita may be told in order to illustrate
both these last. [155] Eight years after his admission to the Community that elder
was sitting in the midst of thirty thousand bhikkhus possessed of supernormal
powers who had gathered to attend upon the sickness of the Elder Mahá-
Rohanagutta at Therambatthala. He saw a royal supaóóa (bird) swooping down
from the sky intending to seize an attendant royal nága-serpent as he was
getting rice-gruel accepted for the elder. The Elder Buddharakkhita created a
rock meanwhile, and seizing the royal nága by the arm, he pushed him inside it.
The royal supaóóa gave the rock a blow and made off. The senior elder remarked:
“Friends, if Rakkhita had not been there, we should all have been put to shame.”40
136. Mastery in reviewing is described in the same way as mastery in adverting;
for the reviewing impulsions are in fact those next to the adverting mentioned
there (§132).
137. When he has once acquired mastery in these five ways, then on emerging
from the now familiar first jhána he can regard the flaws in it in this way: “This
attainment is threatened by the nearness of the hindrances, and its factors are
weakened by the grossness of the applied and sustained thought.” He can
bring the second jhána to mind as quieter and so end his attachment to the first
jhána and set about doing what is needed for attaining the second.
138. When he has emerged from the first jhána, applied and sustained thought
appear gross to him as he reviews the jhána factors with mindfulness and full
awareness, while happiness and bliss and unification of mind appear peaceful.
Then, as he brings that same sign to mind as “earth, earth” again and again
40. What the story is trying to illustrate is the rapidity with which the elder entered
the jhána, controlled its duration, and emerged, which is the necessary preliminary to
the working of a marvel (the creation of a rock in this case; XII.57). The last remark
seems to indicate that all the others would have been too slow (see Vism-mhþ 150).
with the purpose of abandoning the gross factors and obtaining the peaceful
factors, [knowing] “now the second jhána will arise,” there arises in him
mind-door adverting with that same earth kasióa as its object, interrupting the
life-continuum. After that, either four or five impulsions impel on that same
object, the last one of which is an impulsion of the fine-material sphere belonging
to the second jhána. The rest are of the sense sphere of the kinds already stated (§74).
:goodpost:

It never fails to amaze me how Arahat Buddharakkhita Thera can attain Jhana so fast and help saving the Naga serpent from Supanna. Unfortunately, nowadays it is almost zero chances to find such a powerful Arahat monk.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by asahi »

Ontheway wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:59 am It never fails to amaze me how Arahat Buddharakkhita Thera can attain Jhana so fast and help saving the Naga serpent from Supanna. Unfortunately, nowadays it is almost zero chances to find such a powerful Arahat monk.
Yes , monk with jhana n psychic still exists . I know Ajahn Keng is one .
No bashing No gossiping
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Ontheway »

asahi wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:58 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:59 am It never fails to amaze me how Arahat Buddharakkhita Thera can attain Jhana so fast and help saving the Naga serpent from Supanna. Unfortunately, nowadays it is almost zero chances to find such a powerful Arahat monk.
Yes , monk with jhana n psychic still exists . I know Ajahn Keng is one .
I have confidence that Ajahn Keng Khemako attained Jhanic meditative level. Though there is no telling which level he attained. It takes one to know one.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
auto
Posts: 4583
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:15 pm Even in Vimuttimagga, which also relies on (an earlier than Vism.) version of Abhidhamma, their appana samadhi jhanas don't preclude body awareness and hearing sounds. In Vimt. appana samadhi means one is fixed in focus on Dharmic perceptions, free of hindrances. It means it's a purified jhana that will not be interrupted by any hindrance. Vism. redefines appana samadhi as a frozen stupor with no volition.
Possibly the volition is available only in the sensual realm, whereas in form realm you need wait for the vipakka citta, because in form realm no new kamma is made.
If you mediate then don't use volition, this in itself equals to non-moving of the body and speech.

Other thing you seem denial of is the nimitta. Thus, you might not know that the nimitta and the body parts what perform the function will be one and the same. Nimitta aren't just random ball of light, instead it is the exact replica of the ajjhatta/self.
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/a/ajjhatta/ wrote:PTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary

Ajjhatta,(adj. -n.) [cp. Sk. adhyātma,cp. attā],that which is personal,subjective,arises from within (in contrast to anything outside,objective or impersonal); as adv. & °interior,personal,inwardly (opp. bahiddhā bāhira etc. outward,outwardly); Cp. ajjhattika & see Dhs. trsl. 272. ‹-› D.I,37 (subjective,inward,of the peace of the 2nd jhāna)
User avatar
frank k
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by frank k »

Ontheway wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:04 pm
asahi wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:58 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:59 am It never fails to amaze me how Arahat Buddharakkhita Thera can attain Jhana so fast and help saving the Naga serpent from Supanna. Unfortunately, nowadays it is almost zero chances to find such a powerful Arahat monk.
Yes , monk with jhana n psychic still exists . I know Ajahn Keng is one .
I have confidence that Ajahn Keng Khemako attained Jhanic meditative level. Though there is no telling which level he attained. It takes one to know one.
Ajahn K ordained under Thanissaro Bhikkhu in Ajahn Lee lineage. They're practicing EBT jhana, not VRJ Vism. redefinition of "jhana". I wouldn't be surprised if Ajahn K is skilled in LBT "jhana", but VRJ LBT "Jhana" has nothing to do with true skill of samadhi. Plenty of skilled LBT "jhana" meditators have no psychic power, and as far as I can tell, that style of practice tends to produce practitioners with weak critical thinking skills and discernment, compared to accomplished EBT jhana meditators.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by Ontheway »

frank k wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:20 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:04 pm
asahi wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:58 pm

Yes , monk with jhana n psychic still exists . I know Ajahn Keng is one .
I have confidence that Ajahn Keng Khemako attained Jhanic meditative level. Though there is no telling which level he attained. It takes one to know one.
Ajahn K ordained under Thanissaro Bhikkhu in Ajahn Lee lineage. They're practicing EBT jhana, not VRJ Vism. redefinition of "jhana". I wouldn't be surprised if Ajahn K is skilled in LBT "jhana", but VRJ LBT "Jhana" has nothing to do with true skill of samadhi. Plenty of skilled LBT "jhana" meditators have no psychic power, and as far as I can tell, that style of practice tends to produce practitioners with weak critical thinking skills and discernment, compared to accomplished EBT jhana meditators.
He practiced "Bud-dho" mantra and Anapanasati. He mentioned them many times in his Dhammatalk.

And "Bud-dho" mantra wasn't found in both EBT or LBT.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
User avatar
frank k
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by frank k »

Ontheway wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:06 am ...
He practiced "Bud-dho" mantra and Anapanasati. He mentioned them many times in his Dhammatalk.

And "Bud-dho" mantra wasn't found in both EBT or LBT.
Have you studied how Ajahn Lee and B. Thanissaro teach Anapanasati? Very EBT in accordance with the suttas, not LBT at all.
Ajahn Mun (their great grand teacher) taught the use of 'Buddho' mantra as a way to clear the mind of akusala thought, replacing it with the kusala thought of 'buddho'. That is totally EBT legitimate method. See MN 20, 5 methods of removing unwanted vitakka.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
User avatar
frank k
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by frank k »

robertk wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:33 am ... (quoting Vism. javana section for the entering and exiting frozen stupor LBT "jhana")...
my reply move to this thread
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=41657&p=651508#p651508
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
auto
Posts: 4583
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:13 am akusala thought, replacing it with the kusala thought of 'buddho'. That is totally EBT legitimate method. See MN 20, 5 methods of removing unwanted vitakka.
akusala, kusala thoughts arise because of meditation on nimitta. How can mantra of buddho be a resultant?
https://suttacentral.net/mn20/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:Take a mendicant who is focusing on some foundation of meditation that gives rise to bad, unskillful thoughts connected with desire, hate, and delusion. That mendicant should focus on some other foundation of meditation connected with the skillful.

Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno yaṁ nimittaṁ..
To add, kusala citta is kusala because it knows kamma. In that sense dirty thoughts are kusala if citta knows kamma.

Also posts like these you making are showing heavy personal bias. It doesn't look good for the quality of being legit.
auto
Posts: 4583
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

Post by auto »

atipattoh wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:56 am
auto wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:44 pm
Hmm....
Rapture that depends on the five kinds of sensual stimulation is like a fire that depends on grass and logs as fuel.
But if you wish to discuss about sensual with regards to greed, hate and delusion, maybe you could post it in other thread that talk on this subject, if there is one, or open a new thread; i believe there are many interested in this subject.
i don't get it why you post that quote, do you imply that i haven't seen that and thus i made my post oblivious of it?
Post Reply