Jhana , Sammapati and Sammasamadhi

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Post Reply
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Jhana , Sammapati and Sammasamadhi

Post by asahi »

Please explain how these three differs .

:thanks:
No bashing No gossiping
Mr. Seek
Posts: 582
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:45 am

Re: Jhana , Sammapati and Sammasamadhi

Post by Mr. Seek »

Good luck finding out any valid, detailed answers, to a topic as complicated and broad as this. Nowadays there are many different interpretations. I imagine people will, in their attempts to answer you, just argue between one another.

Jhana, samma, miccha, sati, samadhi, sam. All words that predate Buddhism. They have very nuanced, deep, metaphysical meanings. I'd suggest (also) exploring what sources that predate Buddhism have to say. Cheers.
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Jhana , Sammapati and Sammasamadhi

Post by Ontheway »

Jhana is a meditation attainment characterized by "Ekaggatā", developed and obtained by practicing one of those 40 meditation methods, though some are capable to obtain all four Jhanas, some are only at access concentration.

Sammasamadhi is defined by the Blessed One as fourfold Jhanas, rightly developed, pertaining to Enlightenment, as in Maggavibhanga Suttanta (SN45.8).

Nirodha samapatti (the attainment of cessation)
Sutta MN 43 should be read for knowing its characteristics:

“Yvāyaṁ, āvuso, mato kālaṅkato tassa kāyasaṅkhārā niruddhā paṭippassaddhā, vacīsaṅkhārā niruddhā paṭippassaddhā, cittasaṅkhārā niruddhā paṭippassaddhā, āyu parikkhīṇo, usmā vūpasantā, indriyāni paribhinnāni. Yo cāyaṁ bhikkhu saññāvedayitanirodhaṁ samāpanno tassapi kāyasaṅkhārā niruddhā paṭippassaddhā, vacīsaṅkhārā niruddhā paṭippassaddhā, cittasaṅkhārā niruddhā paṭippassaddhā, āyu na parikkhīṇo, usmā avūpasantā, indriyāni vippasannāni. Yvāyaṁ, āvuso, mato kālaṅkato, yo cāyaṁ bhikkhu saññāvedayitanirodhaṁ samāpanno—idaṁ nesaṁ nānākaraṇan”ti."

From this Suttanta, again it was explained in great details within the last chapter of Visuddhimagga.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Mr. Seek
Posts: 582
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:45 am

Re: Jhana , Sammapati and Sammasamadhi

Post by Mr. Seek »

Ontheway wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:16 pm Jhana is a meditation attainment characterized by "Ekaggatā", developed and obtained by practicing one of those 40 meditation methods...
You really think a word that means burning away refers to one pointed concentration on an object? What about suttas like AN 11.9 where it is said that proper jhana is to be done without dependence on objects? What about suttas that discourage objectification and praise non-objectification?

Ah, tough topic.
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Jhana , Sammapati and Sammasamadhi

Post by Ontheway »

Mr. Seek wrote:[/color]time=1634574170 user_id=17015]
Ontheway wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:16 pm Jhana is a meditation attainment characterized by "Ekaggatā", developed and obtained by practicing one of those 40 meditation methods...
You really think a word that means burning away refers to one pointed concentration on an object? What about suttas like AN 11.9 where it is said that proper jhana is to be done without dependence on objects? What about suttas that discourage objectification and praise non-objectification?

Ah, tough topic.
Source: BuddhaSasana: Concise Pali-English Dictionary
ekaggatā : (f.) tranquillity of mind; onepointedness

Add on:
From Cula-Vedalla Suttanta:

"Katamo panāyye, samādhi?..."
"Yā kho, āvuso visākha, cittassa ekaggatā ayaṁ samādhi..."

Layman Visākha was asking Arahat Dhammadinnā Theri to define samādhi, and she replied "cittassa ekaggatā". Since sammāsamādhi is referred to fourfold Jhana attainment (Suttantabhajaniya method) or fivefold Jhana categorisation (Abhidhammabhajaniya method), so the Jhanas are characterized by "Ekaggatā".

“Paṇḍitā, visākha, dhammadinnā bhikkhunī, mahāpaññā, visākha, dhammadinnā bhikkhunī. Mañcepi tvaṁ, visākha, etamatthaṁ puccheyyāsi, ahampi taṁ evamevaṁ byākareyyaṁ, yathā taṁ dhammadinnāya bhikkhuniyā byākataṁ. Eso cevetassa attho. Evañca naṁ dhārehī”ti."

And Lord Buddha later sealed the teachings of Arahat Dhammadinnā Theri as if Words of The Master Himself.
Last edited by Ontheway on Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22410
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Jhana , Sammapati and Sammasamadhi

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr. Seek wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:22 pm
Ontheway wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:16 pm Jhana is a meditation attainment characterized by "Ekaggatā", developed and obtained by practicing one of those 40 meditation methods...
You really think a word that means burning away refers to one pointed concentration on an object? What about suttas like AN 11.9 where it is said that proper jhana is to be done without dependence on objects? What about suttas that discourage objectification and praise non-objectification?

Ah, tough topic.
That sutta is discussing either the signless, emptiness or wishless meditations. Those come after developing Jhana.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Mr. Seek
Posts: 582
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:45 am

Re: Jhana , Sammapati and Sammasamadhi

Post by Mr. Seek »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:28 pm
Mr. Seek wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:22 pm
Ontheway wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:16 pm Jhana is a meditation attainment characterized by "Ekaggatā", developed and obtained by practicing one of those 40 meditation methods...
You really think a word that means burning away refers to one pointed concentration on an object? What about suttas like AN 11.9 where it is said that proper jhana is to be done without dependence on objects? What about suttas that discourage objectification and praise non-objectification?

Ah, tough topic.
That sutta is discussing either the signless, emptiness or wishless meditations. Those come after developing Jhana.
It uses the verb jhāyi though and doesn't mention the signless, emptiness, or wishless meditations. As if jhana is the signless, emptiness, or wishless meditations.

What object did the Buddha concentrate on when he was resting under that one tree as a child, while his father was working? He hadn't gone forth at that time and had no knowledge of concentration, no reason to concentrate on an object. Guy was probably just a little kid, not yet capable of even helping with his father's work. He was just resting, and he attained jhana. He says it himself.

What sensible, knowledgeable, capable contemplative, would disclose, to a little child, an advanced spiritual method such as concentration on an object? Why would he do that? This sort of knowledge is heavily guarded, highly destructive, and obviously the Buddha was just a little kid that probably couldn't understand much. This stuff is reserved for those gone forth into a specific order. That's why some bad people infiltrated the Buddhist sangha in some suttas--to get their knowledge and methods.

Why would he concentrate, how would he concentrate? How would he attain a concentration attainment as a little kid, not yet gone forth? He has no reason or capability. Didn't he used to be surrounded by sensual pleasures all the time? First jhana requires seclusion from that. Chances are, the Buddha didn't concentrate on an object, but was just resting.
Last edited by Mr. Seek on Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:01 pm, edited 5 times in total.
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: Jhana , Sammapati and Sammasamadhi

Post by asahi »

Ontheway wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:16 pm
Sammasamadhi is defined by the Blessed One as fourfold Jhanas, rightly developed, pertaining to Enlightenment, as in Maggavibhanga Suttanta (SN45.8).
What about the other ascetics whom appears to be well developed in fourfold jhanas ? That would make them equipped with sammasamadhi without developing in the 7 co-factors starting with right view which are required on the noble path .
No bashing No gossiping
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Jhana , Sammapati and Sammasamadhi

Post by Ontheway »

asahi wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:47 pm
Ontheway wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:16 pm
Sammasamadhi is defined by the Blessed One as fourfold Jhanas, rightly developed, pertaining to Enlightenment, as in Maggavibhanga Suttanta (SN45.8).
What about the other ascetics whom appears to be well developed in fourfold jhanas ? That would make them equipped with sammasamadhi without developing in the 7 co-factors starting with right view which are required on the noble path .
Hi

Imo, the Buddha don't really said that some of those Brahmins or Samanas (that capable to go through all four Jhanas without mistakes) meditate wrongly. But rather, the Buddha said they are misguided, trapped by their ego, thinking those Jhana attainment as permanent refuge, thought of it as final cessation (of Self), having wrong views, stuck at certain level of attainment due to subtle craving, without clear knowledge of breakthrough, without the knowledge of Saddhamma.

Some of those ascetics, Buddha even wanted to take them as disciples (worthy to be tamed).

If you read Buddha's life story, immediately after gaining Enlightenment and the Buddha prepared to teach, the first target was Alara Kalama (a Master of Jhana), but Buddha later know that Alara was dead through his direct knowledge. Then Buddha again wanted to tame Udaka Ramaputta (another Master of Jhana), but later found out that he was dead too. Knowing these, the Buddha only then going for the five ascetics.

Jhanas weren't only found in Buddhism, in the Jatakas, those non-buddhist Bodhisattas or ascetics often seen to be capable of developing Jhanas through the meditation of Metta, Karuna, Mudita and Upekkha....which later they get to reborn in Higher Brahma world. But they couldn't get MaggaPhala since Saddhamma did not appear in the world.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Post Reply