Are cloths I am wearing, a part of my Nama-Rupa?

[SarathW]

Are cloths I am wearing, a part of my Nama-Rupa?
What about my finger nails and hair etc?

[Ontheway]

"Tattha katamo rūpakkhandho? Yaṁ kiñci rūpaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṁ vā sukhumaṁ vā hīnaṁ vā paṇītaṁ vā yaṁ dūre santike vā, tadekajjhaṁ abhisaññūhitvā abhisaṅkhipitvā—ayaṁ vuccati rūpakkhandho."
- Vibhaṅga

The finger nails and hair should be grouped within "Body" category, which is the internal aspect of "Rupa". The cloths you wear (as perceived by eyes upon 'Contact'), is grouped within "visible data" category, which is the external aspect or "Rupa".

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Are cloths I am wearing, a part of my Nama-Rupa?
What about my finger nails and hair etc?

Form is the four great elements, and the form derived from that. This "derivation" of form, occurs via the constituents of name. (See SN 12.2)

With that said, what do you think?

Also, why would you regard it as "my" given that all dhammas are not-self, not-I, not-mine?

Metta,
Paul.

[SarathW]

How can we apply Nama-Rupa in Dependent Origination for being in Arupavacara realms?
ie: Vinnana paccya Nama-rupa.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Sarath,

How can we apply Nama-Rupa in Dependent Origination for being in Arupavacara realms?
ie: Vinnana paccya Nama-rupa.

Forms don't need "materiality" to be present. Have you ever had a dream Sarath? What was the material basis of what you saw in your dreams?

Metta,
Paul.

[SarathW]

Greetings Sarath,

How can we apply Nama-Rupa in Dependent Origination for being in Arupavacara realms?
ie: Vinnana paccya Nama-rupa.

Forms don't need "materiality" to be present. Have you ever had a dream Sarath? What was the material basis of what you saw in your dreams?

Metta,
Paul.

So it is "Vinnana paccaya Nama" for Arupavacara beings?

[justindesilva]

Are cloths I am wearing, a part of my Nama-Rupa?
What about my finger nails and hair etc?

Clothes are part of your desires or emotions.
The styles colours etc of a cloth is nothing but tanha and upadana, part of your mind of course. It can cause you grief and suffering if you do not get the clothes and fashions required.

[SarathW]

Just a matter of interst.
In Abhidhamma you find the following phrases:

-Herein, what is ‘with consciousness as condition: mind and bodily form?’

in another place you find:
Herein, what is ‘with consciousness as condition: mind?’

In the second instance there is no bodily form is mentioned.


https://suttacentral.net/vb6/en/anandajoti

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Sarath,

So it is "Vinnana paccaya Nama" for Arupavacara beings?

No, paticcasamuppada is never explained that way.

Nama-rupa arises in dependence upon vinnana, and vinnana rises in dependence upon nama-rupa... but nama is never detached from rupa in the way you describe.

Your love of Abhidhamma and associated commitment to rupa being materiality is causing you confusion. It's not without reason that I used the example of dreams earlier.

Metta,
Paul.

[Ontheway]

Greetings Sarath,

So it is "Vinnana paccaya Nama" for Arupavacara beings?

No, paticcasamuppada is never explained that way.

Nama-rupa arises in dependence upon vinnana, and vinnana rises in dependence upon nama-rupa... but nama is never detached from rupa in the way you describe.

Your love of Abhidhamma and associated commitment to rupa being materiality is causing you confusion. It's not without reason that I used the example of dreams earlier.

Metta,
Paul.

Since when dream is Rupa? Any Sutta reference?

[Ontheway]

How can we apply Nama-Rupa in Dependent Origination for being in Arupavacara realms?
ie: Vinnana paccya Nama-rupa.

You can read Paṭhamabhavasutta (AN 3.76), it answers your question.

"Arūpadhātuvepakkañca, ānanda, kammaṁ nābhavissa, api nu kho arūpabhavo paññāyethā”ti?"

“No hetaṁ, bhante”.

“Iti kho, ānanda, kammaṁ khettaṁ, viññāṇaṁ bījaṁ, taṇhā sneho. Avijjānīvaraṇānaṁ sattānaṁ taṇhāsaṁyojanānaṁ paṇītāya dhātuyā viññāṇaṁ patiṭṭhitaṁ evaṁ āyatiṁ punabbhavābhinibbatti hoti. Evaṁ kho, ānanda, bhavo hotī”ti."

[SarathW]

How can we apply Nama-Rupa in Dependent Origination for being in Arupavacara realms?
ie: Vinnana paccya Nama-rupa.

You can read Paṭhamabhavasutta (AN 3.76), it answers your question.

"Arūpadhātuvepakkañca, ānanda, kammaṁ nābhavissa, api nu kho arūpabhavo paññāyethā”ti?"

“No hetaṁ, bhante”.

“Iti kho, ānanda, kammaṁ khettaṁ, viññāṇaṁ bījaṁ, taṇhā sneho. Avijjānīvaraṇānaṁ sattānaṁ taṇhāsaṁyojanānaṁ paṇītāya dhātuyā viññāṇaṁ patiṭṭhitaṁ evaṁ āyatiṁ punabbhavābhinibbatti hoti. Evaṁ kho, ānanda, bhavo hotī”ti."

So what is the answer in your language?

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[Spiny Norman]

Greetings Sarath,

How can we apply Nama-Rupa in Dependent Origination for being in Arupavacara realms?
ie: Vinnana paccya Nama-rupa.

Forms don't need "materiality" to be present. Have you ever had a dream Sarath? What was the material basis of what you saw in your dreams?

Metta,
Paul.

As you noted in your previous post, form is the four great elements and the form derived from them. Derived form is the "raw data" of sense-objects like sights and sounds.
But an image in a dream is a mind-object, and not a sense-object derived from the four great elements. It's a speculative point anyway, given that the suttas only deal with waking consciousness.

[Spiny Norman]

Greetings Sarath,

So it is "Vinnana paccaya Nama" for Arupavacara beings?

No, paticcasamuppada is never explained that way.

Nama-rupa arises in dependence upon vinnana, and vinnana rises in dependence upon nama-rupa... but nama is never detached from rupa in the way you describe.

Your love of Abhidhamma and associated commitment to rupa being materiality is causing you confusion. It's not without reason that I used the example of dreams earlier.

Metta,
Paul.

Since when dream is Rupa? Any Sutta reference?

The sutta don't deal with dreams, only with waking consciousness.
It depends how you interpret "form derived from the four great elements". I take it to be the "raw data" of sense objects.

[samseva]

Are cloths I am wearing, a part of my Nama-Rupa?

Nāma-rūpa is mind-and-body, or mentality-corporeality. Your clothes aren't part of your body, so no.

Some might say rūpa from nāma-rūpa also includes all physical objects that aren't body, like a table, and other people. Although, nāma-rūpa implying a combination of the mind and body, it's difficult to see how it could also include objects that aren't the body, IMO (especially other living beings).

What about my finger nails and hair etc?

Unless you cut them, yes, your hair and nails are still growing and living, conditioned by the rest of your body.