Why work toward a fortunate rebirth?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Why work toward a fortunate rebirth?

Post by Ontheway »

rumpledime wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:54 pm
Ontheway wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:14 am Because that future is also you
I experience the fruit of my Kamma only through the aggregates. When I become an arahant I am no longer conditioned. Up until that point everything I experience is conditioned and experienced by the aggregates. The aggregates fall away when die. Nothing of "me" remains after death, only my kamma, my stored up cittas remain. So in what way is this future self still me?
Here I think there are two situations:

1) When we can't attain Arahatship.

It is true that the current Pancuppadanakkhanda (this current 'you' or 'me', as in conventional sense) willl be disintegrated upon death. But still if you can't get rid of greed, hatred or delusion completely, there the factors pertaining to rebirth remained. Because it was the innate craving that propels 'you' to undergo another rebirth or 'reappearance' at a particular realm according to Kamma. In the Pathamabhava Sutta (AN 3.76), the Blessed One taught the "seed, field, moisture" simile to describe rebirth.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.76/pli/ms? ... ript=latin

As long as beings couldn't uproot greed, hatred, and delusion, they are subject to rebirth over and over again (and the problem is: there are more sufferings in Samsara compared to trifling happiness, and 'Dukkha' is always predominant).

In the course of rebirth phenomena, though not the same personality goes on, yet they are not different person either (Na ca so, na ca añño). The Blessed One said if someone holds that "It is this same personality goes on and on, life after life", then it is a Wrong View. On the other hand, if someone holds the view that "After death, there's no continuity whatsoever; wise and fool alike, perish and will be annihilated, with death as final end", such mindset is also a Wrong View. Rejecting both and realising the truths, the Blessed One explained the Middle mode: a stream of consciousness. Consciousnesses arise and cease, are impermanent, suffering, and non-self. Another simile could be given is this: Just like cheese is different from milk, yet it is from milk that cheese was produced. Can we say that cheese is milk? Not so. But can we say cheese is completely not from milk? Not so.
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2) When we attained Arahantship.

Then, there will be no more future Kammas, no more renewal of beings, there will be no more rebirth. Two Nibbana elements were described:
https://suttacentral.net/iti44/pli/ms?l ... ript=latin

While alive, the Arahat entered Nibbana with residue. Once the Arahat attained Parinibbana, 'he' entered Nibbana without residue.

That moment, 'he' can be said like "the fire of lamp extinguishes as there is no more fuel". Here the simile, "fuel" is greed, hatred, and delusion (in a broad sense), the "fire" means "renewal of beings" or "rebirth".

NonBuddhists often said Buddhists are death-worshippers but that is not true. Parinibbana and death is totally two different topics.

Death is the momentary lapse that involves the breakdown of Pancuppadanakkhanda, begin with the arising of "Cuti Vinnana" and ends with the ceasing of "Cuti Vinnana". But there it will immediately conditions the arising of new consciousness named "Patisandhi Vinnana" (or the 'seed' in Pathamabhava Sutta) that will be established in one of the realms and continue journey. Again, similes of "echo in a cave", "teacher teaches his student on recitation", or "radio wave" could be used for explaining the phenomenon.

Meanwhile, Parinibbana is without such occurrence. The full details of this can be studied in Mahaparinibbana Sutta (DN).
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So, unless we are confident that we can attain Arahatship this very lifetime, if not, we still need to prepare for next life, whether it is for mundane or supramundane purpose. :anjali:
Last edited by Ontheway on Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
PeterC86
Posts: 1412
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:06 pm

Re: Why work toward a fortunate rebirth?

Post by PeterC86 »

rumpledime wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:48 pm Below I am quoting Bikkhu Bodhi's lecture on Kamma and Rebirth. Beneath the quotes are my questions.

"When the body breaks up at death the succession of cittas doesn't draw to an end. There takes place one final thought moment called the death consciousness. This last citta signals the complete end of the life. Then following the death consciousness there occurs another citta, the first citta of the new life."
I don't know where Bodhi gets his wisdom of a 'final thought moment called the death consciousness'. Also it isn't explained how 'following the death consciousness there occurs another citta'. Also it is unclear to me why Bodhi refers to a thought moment as being citta.
"In order for the six sense faculties to exist, the entire psycho-physical organism is required, that is nāmarūpa. The sense faculties do not operate in disembodied space but as parts of a total organism. Thus, on account of craving, the mind holds on to this presently existing organism as long as it lives. Why? So it can have these six sense faculties.... When death comes this body ceases to provide a suitable basis for obtaining pleasure through the senses. ....When life in the body comes to end the senses become defunct. Craving causes the stream of mind to spring up again, grasping on to a fertilized egg...bringing the whole storage of accumulated impressions over with it into the new psycho-physical organism. Thus we see a new being has been conceived."
This doesn't coincide with the teaching of dependent origination, as dependent origination teaches us that it is ignorance that conceives a being.

So I cannot answer your questions, as those teachings don't make sense to me.

Maybe you want to read this post of Mikenz66 here, especially the sutta to which he linked; viewtopic.php?p=650777#p650777
TRobinson465
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Location: United States

Re: Why work toward a fortunate rebirth?

Post by TRobinson465 »

rumpledime wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:05 pm
TRobinson465 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:58 am Just think of this, but change life stages to actual lives.
Yes, but this is all within the same stream of this current life. I can look back as an adult and be grateful for that effort in high school. No such thing happens in rebirth, because there is no "me." When I die everything that is "me" goes away and my stream moves on to a new lifeform.
That's only partially true. When reborn as a deva, even tho you r a different "being" you would still remember your past life. Beings born by apparition remember thier immediate prior existence. Also. There is also a good chance that the being who one day becomes an arahant or even another being, will have abhinna and can remember your deeds in this life and acknowledge how your deeds now helped it achieve arahntship later.

Also. Like many of the other people on this forum. I personally think you r taking the "no self" interpretation of anatta too seriously and to too much of a logical extreme.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Why work toward a fortunate rebirth?

Post by Ontheway »

A good Dhamma book from Thanissaro Bhikkhu on this topic:

https://www.buddhistelibrary.org/en/dis ... play_media
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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