MN 2 All the taints - never tells what taints

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josaphatbarlaam
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MN 2 All the taints - never tells what taints

Post by josaphatbarlaam »

https://suttacentral.net/mn2/en/bodhi?l ... ript=latin

So I was reading this sutta today, not the first time as I've read it many times before, and this time it really struck me as very odd something very off about it, and after puzzling over it for a while I realized what it is: how it doesn't actually tell what it says it does.

That is, it says "What taints, bhikkhus, should be abandoned by avoiding?" It then lists things to avoid (wild elephants, dogs, snakes, etc.) and says "While taints, vexation, and fever might arise in one who does not avoid these things, there are no taints, vexation, and fever in one who avoids them."

And this repeated with other formulas "What taints, bhikkhus, should be abandoned by developing?" Then lists certain thing to develop (mindfulness enlightenment factor, etc.), and says the fomula again "While taints, vexation, and fever might arise in one who does not develop these enlightenment factors, there are no taints, vexation, or fever in one who develops them."

The problem is it sets up like its going to say What taints should be abandoned by developing, versus What taints should be abandoned by avoiding, or what taints should be abandoned by other methods. And yet it doesn't. It never tells what taints each method deals with. What gives?
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Sam Vara
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Re: MN 2 All the taints - never tells what taints

Post by Sam Vara »

All of them!
While taints, vexation, and fever might arise in one who abides with the faculties unrestrained, there are no taints, vexation, or fever in one who abides with the faculties restrained. These are called the taints that should be abandoned by restraining.
(etc., for the other methods of abandoning.)

Show me a list of what the Buddha elsewhere calls taints, and it's everything on that list. They are normally considered to be the taints of sensuality, becoming, ignorance, and (sometimes) views.
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bodom
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Re: MN 2 All the taints - never tells what taints

Post by bodom »

From Nyanatiloka Thera's Buddhist Dictionary:
ásava: (lit: influxes), 'cankers', taints, corruption's, intoxicant biases. There is a list of four (as in D. 16, Pts.M., Vibh.): the canker of sense-desire (kámásava), of (desiring eternal) existence (bhavásava), of (wrong) views (ditthásava), and of ignorance (avijjásava). A list of three, omitting the canker of views, is possibly older and is more frequent in the Suttas, e.g. in M. 2, M. 9, D. 33; A. III, 59, 67; A. VI, 63. - In Vibh.
(Khuddakavatthu Vibh.) both the 3-fold and 4-fold division are mentioned. The fourfold division also occurs under the name of 'floods' (ogha) and 'yokes' (yoga).

Through the path of Stream-Entry, the canker of views is destroyed; through the path of Non-Returning, the canker of sense-desire; through the path of Arahatship, the cankers of existence and ignorance. M. 2 shows how to overcome the cankers, namely, through insight, sense-control, avoidance, wise use of the necessities of life, etc. For a commentarial exposition, see Atthasálini Tr. I, p. 63f: II, pp. 475ff.

Khínásava, 'one whose cankers are destroyed', or 'one who is canker-free', is a name for the Arahat or Holy One. The state of Arahatship is frequently called ásavakkhaya, 'the destruction of the cankers'. Suttas concluding with the attainment of Arahatship by the listeners, often end with the words: "During this utterance, the hearts of the Bhikkhus were freed from the cankers through clinging no more" (anupádáya ásavehi cittáni vimuccimsú'ti)
:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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SDC
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Re: MN 2 All the taints - never tells what taints

Post by SDC »

Within the first few paragraphs there is mention of the three taints of sensual desire, being and ignorance. The lengthy description associated with these is abandoning by seeing. Ends with, “By not attending to things unfit for attention and by attending to things fit for attention, unarisen taints do not arise in him and arisen taints are abandoned.” Bear in mind that everything that follows seems to be within that same general above framework. Each describes a case of what will happen if one chooses the direction of what is unfit and what is fit. In each case we find, “Here a bhikkhu, reflecting wisely…”

The second is abandoning through restraining, which describes sense restraint and how it prevents those same three taints from arising. Ends with, “While taints, vexation, and fever might arise in one who abides with the faculties unrestrained, there are no taints, vexation, or fever in one who abides with the faculties restrained.”

Abandoned by using is in regards to maintaining the body without which there can be no progress. This care of the body is necessary but nonetheless a burden. Ends with, “ While taints, vexation, and fever might arise in one who does not use the requisites thus, there are no taints, vexation, or fever in one who uses them thus.”

Abandoned by enduring is fascinating in that it is all the elements that one must endure on account of which no taints will arise. Ends with, “ While taints, vexation, and fever might arise in one who does not endure such things, there are no taints, vexation, or fever in one who endures them.”

And so on an so forth…

So to answer your final question: it is always those three that are to be abandoned. The key seems to be that if one does not attend properly to these different ways of abandoning, then it is a lack of abandonment that directly support the arising of the taints of sensual desire, being and ignorance. In other words, it is through these different ways that the three taints will arise if they are not handled accordingly.

Just my two cents.

I hope this helps. :smile:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
PeterC86
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Re: MN 2 All the taints - never tells what taints

Post by PeterC86 »

josaphatbarlaam wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:59 pm https://suttacentral.net/mn2/en/bodhi?l ... ript=latin

So I was reading this sutta today, not the first time as I've read it many times before, and this time it really struck me as very odd something very off about it, and after puzzling over it for a while I realized what it is: how it doesn't actually tell what it says it does.

That is, it says "What taints, bhikkhus, should be abandoned by avoiding?" It then lists things to avoid (wild elephants, dogs, snakes, etc.) and says "While taints, vexation, and fever might arise in one who does not avoid these things, there are no taints, vexation, and fever in one who avoids them."

And this repeated with other formulas "What taints, bhikkhus, should be abandoned by developing?" Then lists certain thing to develop (mindfulness enlightenment factor, etc.), and says the fomula again "While taints, vexation, and fever might arise in one who does not develop these enlightenment factors, there are no taints, vexation, or fever in one who develops them."

The problem is it sets up like its going to say What taints should be abandoned by developing, versus What taints should be abandoned by avoiding, or what taints should be abandoned by other methods. And yet it doesn't. It never tells what taints each method deals with. What gives?
I took a look at this sutta, and in the beginning already something strikes me as odd;
“What taints, bhikkhus, should be abandoned by seeing? Here, bhikkhus, an untaught ordinary person, who has no regard for noble ones and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, who has no regard for true men and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, does not understand what things are fit for attention and what things are unfit for attention. Since that is so, he attends to those things unfit for attention and he does not attend to those things fit for attention.
The statement of;'since that is so' refers to previous being true because it is stated as such. Which is the same as; it is written here, therefore it is true. The rest of the sutta is based on this statement. Which makes me question if this particular teaching is based on an applied practice, or that it is just a representation of what the writer/teacher of this sutta holds to be true..
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