🔗📝 AN 3.63 (walking in jhana is divine) collection of external notes and research

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frank k
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🔗📝 AN 3.63 (walking in jhana is divine) collection of external notes and research

Post by frank k »

🔗📝 AN 3.63 (walking in jhana is divine) collection of external notes and research
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... ivine.html
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josaphatbarlaam
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Re: 🔗📝 AN 3.63 (walking in jhana is divine) collection of external notes and research

Post by josaphatbarlaam »

One thing I've been thinking of bringing up but know will be made fun of. Several people objected that he couldn't walk in jhana because they say the senses are turned off. So how does he walk if he can't see where he's going? But the passage says he walks back and forth so the place is already clear and the extent he will walk in each direction is established. That he could pass on to the body some instruction to keep walking on this track is not much different than the idea of noting the time for waking before going to sleep. How do you wake up from sleep at the noted time when you're asleep and so can't look at a watch? Same as how one would put the body on a track walking back and forth in a certain line before turning off the senses.
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Re: 🔗📝 AN 3.63 (walking in jhana is divine) collection of external notes and research

Post by nirodh27 »

josaphatbarlaam wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:19 pm One thing I've been thinking of bringing up but know will be made fun of. Several people objected that he couldn't walk in jhana because they say the senses are turned off. So how does he walk if he can't see where he's going? But the passage says he walks back and forth so the place is already clear and the extent he will walk in each direction is established. That he could pass on to the body some instruction to keep walking on this track is not much different than the idea of noting the time for waking before going to sleep. How do you wake up from sleep at the noted time when you're asleep and so can't look at a watch? Same as how one would put the body on a track walking back and forth in a certain line before turning off the senses.
A medal with the face of Buddhaghosa should be given to you ASAP for this post.

Btw being a Buddha he would know about the anicca, the dangers and the unreliability of tracks when you don't look around so it would be contrary to the teachings :tongue:
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Post by sunnat »

The first stanzas in the dhammapada has a story about a blind monk walking up and down stepping on ants. Buddha tells the monks who come to complin that he is blind and excused. Otherwise, each paragraph about jhanas tell how one sits down, progresses through the jhanas, (leaving preceding ones behind) and reach the fourth where there is perfect awareness, equanimity. This is the mindset in walking, standing, sitting, lying down that is referred to and that is not contraindicative.
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Post by josaphatbarlaam »

sunnat wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:49 am The first stanzas in the dhammapada has a story about a blind monk walking up and down stepping on ants.
With supernormal powers he could tell all ants to vacate the area before he starts walking.
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SDC
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Post by SDC »

josaphatbarlaam wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:53 pm
sunnat wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:49 am The first stanzas in the dhammapada has a story about a blind monk walking up and down stepping on ants.
With supernormal powers he could tell all ants to vacate the area before he starts walking.
There’s a very fascinating bit in the Vinaya - in the section about the origin of the monastic code - where a few hundred monks were held up in region that was deep in famine. Ven. Mogallana said to the Buddha that he could invert the earth to extract sprouts from deep in the soil to feed the monks. I think the Buddha said something to the effect of that the creatures in the soil would loose their minds as a result, and asked him not to pursue it. Not exactly the same case, but it seems to imply that psychic powers can be too intense for small creatures. Perhaps…no way to know for sure.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Jack19990101
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Re: 🔗📝 AN 3.63 (walking in jhana is divine) collection of external notes and research

Post by Jack19990101 »

I don't know much about this - i think we only lose sensation of pain & itches in first jhana.
The sense of touch, mobility, feeling a breeze have not subsided.

I remember a story about a monk who went ahead pulling out his tooth decay by himself. it sounds a first jhana thing although the story didn't say.
A 2nd story is what i read about Dipa Ma. She could not feel pain while walking when a dog has sanken its teeth into her leg.

But it probably has to do with how strong a jhana is.
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Re: 🔗📝 AN 3.63 (walking in jhana is divine) collection of external notes and research

Post by BrokenBones »

josaphatbarlaam wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:19 pm One thing I've been thinking of bringing up but know will be made fun of. Several people objected that he couldn't walk in jhana because they say the senses are turned off. So how does he walk if he can't see where he's going? But the passage says he walks back and forth so the place is already clear and the extent he will walk in each direction is established. That he could pass on to the body some instruction to keep walking on this track is not much different than the idea of noting the time for waking before going to sleep. How do you wake up from sleep at the noted time when you're asleep and so can't look at a watch? Same as how one would put the body on a track walking back and forth in a certain line before turning off the senses.
You're assuming that first jhana requires the eyes to be closed. There's no such instructions in the suttas.
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Re: 🔗📝 AN 3.63 (walking in jhana is divine) collection of external notes and research

Post by frank k »

robertk wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:33 am ... (quoting Vism. javana section for the entering and exiting frozen stupor LBT "jhana")...
I already addressed that possibility in the article under the 'functional drunk LBT jhana' section.
Whereas you don't answer the really interesting questions raised.

1. If only the rarest of the rare LBT jhana meditators can walk and do jhana, why would the Buddha talk about jhana walking in the sutta as if all arahants can do it? Look at all 3 divine beds. All 3 look like they can be done by all arahants, and in all 4 postures.

If only the Buddha and Sariputta could do the 'functional drunk LBT jhana' trick, you'd expect some kind of qualification.



2. If what the suttas describe sound exactly like LBT's post jhana upacara samadhi instead of appana samadhi (and both terms don't appear in the suttas),
then why keep insisting VIsm. frozen disembodied stupor was taught by the Buddha?

I could propose just as valid of a theory as Vism., that my fair godmother sprinkles fairy dust on me when I do EBT jhana, that causes 4 javana impulsions where I enter and exit a frozen state so quickly that's not visually detectable by anyone except the Buddha or Sariputta.
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Re: 🔗📝 AN 3.63 (walking in jhana is divine) collection of external notes and research

Post by robertk »

frank k wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:26 am

I already addressed that possibility in the article under the 'functional drunk LBT jhana' section.
Whereas you don't answer the really interesting questions raised.

1. If only the rarest of the rare LBT jhana meditators can walk and do jhana, why would the Buddha talk about jhana walking in the sutta as if all arahants can do it? Look at all 3 divine beds. All 3 look like they can be done by all arahants, and in all 4 postures.

If only the Buddha and Sariputta could do the 'functional drunk LBT jhana' trick, you'd expect some kind of qualification.
Actually many bhikkhus and nuns had such degree at the time of the Buddha. As time passes those arahats become less and less.

frank k wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:26 am
2. If what the suttas describe sound exactly like LBT's post jhana upacara samadhi instead of appana samadhi (and both terms don't appear in the suttas),
then why keep insisting VIsm. frozen disembodied stupor was taught by the Buddha?

I could propose just as valid of a theory as Vism., that my fair godmother sprinkles fairy dust on me when I do EBT jhana, that causes 4 javana impulsions where I enter and exit a frozen state so quickly that's not visually detectable by anyone except the Buddha or Sariputta.
okk..
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