A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
sakyan
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Re: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

Post by sakyan »

It's very disappointing that some people are having doubts about the Suttas, Be they Theravada or Mahayana Ones.

It is plain and simple that whatever teachings leads to the arising and maintaining of the wholesome qualities of mind and the cessation and diminishing of unwholesome qualities of mind, Furthermore whatever teachings leads to disenchantment, dispassion and Cessation of all conditioned phenomenon is the teaching of the Buddhas.

I don't have any doubts towards Theravada and Mahayana Suttas, They are 100% genuine and the words of the Buddha. They all lead to disenchantment, dispassion and Cessation of all conditioned dhammas.

Further more one can contemplate and see for oneself if body and mind is impermanent, suffering and not-self.

One can rightly see the 5 agreegates, 6 elements, 6 sense bases - 6 objects and 6 fetters arising on them to be impermanent, suffering and not-self.

The teaching is plain and simple, Clearly pointing to the truths, Yet holding doubts is a sign of our own lack of practice.
SarathW
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Re: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

Post by SarathW »

sakyan wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:15 am It's very disappointing that some people are having doubts about the Suttas, Be they Theravada or Mahayana Ones.

It is plain and simple that whatever teachings leads to the arising and maintaining of the wholesome qualities of mind and the cessation and diminishing of unwholesome qualities of mind, Furthermore whatever teachings leads to disenchantment, dispassion and Cessation of all conditioned phenomenon is the teaching of the Buddhas.

I don't have any doubts towards Theravada and Mahayana Suttas, They are 100% genuine and the words of the Buddha. They all lead to disenchantment, dispassion and Cessation of all conditioned dhammas.

Further more one can contemplate and see for oneself if body and mind is impermanent, suffering and not-self.

One can rightly see the 5 agreegates, 6 elements, 6 sense bases - 6 objects and 6 fetters arising on them to be impermanent, suffering and not-self.

The teaching is plain and simple, Clearly pointing to the truths, Yet holding doubts is a sign of our own lack of practice.
The way I understand the Mhayana, they teach you that you can't attain Nibbana in this life and you have to become a future Buddha. So they create doubt about the teaching.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
TRobinson465
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Re: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

Post by TRobinson465 »

SarathW wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:39 am
he Tipitaka is not considered infallible, for reasons similar to my original response on this thread. things deteriote with time and 2000 year old records can and do have errors, especially as we move farther away from when they were originally given.
So what could be the benchmark for some to decide what is true or what is wrong?
Benchmark = a standard or point of reference against which things may be compared.
The tipitaka is indeed the benchmark, and is the basis for determining Dhamma from Adhamma. What im saying is it gets muddy to decipher "True" Dhamma from counterfeit Dhamma, in that lets say hypothetically your version of the Dhamma actually was the true dhamma, I could give a host of opinions contradicting your correct views based on sutta analysis from other people who came to a different conclusion. Thats the whole point, thats why the Buddha said in that sutta that true dhamma fades when counterfeit dhamma arises, you just can't tell, short of attaining abhinna and seeing through the direct knowledge.

In reality there probably is some lineage or school of Buddhism that is relatively close to the True Dhamma as taught by the Buddha somewhere in the world, you just cant tell what it is just by looking at the suttas, you would have to know by abhinna. One United States constitution, hundreds of interpretations from reading the exact same text. One Tipitaka, hundreds of schools of Buddhism.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
sakyan
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Re: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

Post by sakyan »

The way I understand the Mhayana, they teach you that you can't attain Nibbana in this life and you have to become a future Buddha. So they create doubt about the teaching.
It is not right to say this. I have read and studied considerable amount of Mahayana Suttas and they are very clear on this, If one want nibbana in present life then one should practice the Arhat path, Mahayana is a specific set of teaching and instructions for those who are not inclined to attain arhatship or paccekabuddha but want to attain the Bodhi of the Buddha.

There is a clear distinction made by the Buddha regarding it in many Mahayana Suttas. Moreover Mahayana too agree on all conditioned phenomenon to be impermanent, suffering and not-self, There is no disagreement at all that I have seen.

Arhat path is like a Bachloer's Program
Paccekabuddha path is like a Master's Program
Bodhisattva path is like a Phd program

All agree on the fundamentals but work on different depths.
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SDC
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Re: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

Post by SDC »

sakyan wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:15 am It's very disappointing that some people are having doubts about the Suttas, Be they Theravada or Mahayana Ones.


The teaching is plain and simple, Clearly pointing to the truths, Yet holding doubts is a sign of our own lack of practice.
Working through things that aren’t understood is literally what the practice is - so I have no idea what you’re talking about. I think you’re conflating faith with knowledge. Yes, faith is essential, but the back end of faith is what is not yet directly known and that is where doubt can be found. Last I checked we don’t start the path with the knowledge of an ariya, and gaining it isn’t a choice - it is something earned through development. Besides, the Buddha was not a fan of claiming these things were simple - as someone claiming to know suttas, I’m sure you’re familiar with this one, when Ananda was not yet an arahant:
SN 12.60 wrote:…It is wonderful, venerable sir! It is amazing, venerable sir! This dependent origination is so deep and so deep in implications, yet to me it seems as clear as clear can be.”

“Not so, Ānanda! Not so, Ānanda! This dependent origination is deep and deep in implications. It is because of not understanding and not penetrating this Dhamma, Ānanda, that this generation has become like a tangled skein, like a knotted ball of thread, like matted reeds and rushes, and does not pass beyond the plane of misery, the bad destinations, the nether world, saṁsara.
“By breaking the root of unknowing, it smashes the mechanism of deeds, and drops the thunderbolt of knowledge on the taking up of consciousnesses.” Thag 6.8
bpallister
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Re: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

Post by bpallister »

Didn't the Buddha say something about many fingers pointing to the moon, implying that there are many paths to nibbana? Couldn't this mean there are multiple Dhammas, as opposed to one true Dhamma? i feel like maybe i'm not saying this as eloquently as i would like.
bpallister
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Re: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

Post by bpallister »

SarathW wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:20 am
To each his own I guess. :shrug:
Agree.
I have no idea what that means.
I think monks are not allowed to keep pets.
i've seen videos on youtube of a theravada monk with a dog. i forget his name. he's a younger monk

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Ontheway
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Re: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

Post by Ontheway »

bpallister wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:10 am Didn't the Buddha say something about many fingers pointing to the moon, implying that there are many paths to nibbana? Couldn't this mean there are multiple Dhammas, as opposed to one true Dhamma? i feel like maybe i'm not saying this as eloquently as i would like.
That "multiple Dhammas" here refers to different meditation methods or penetrations to insight. All of these methods lie within the very same Dhamma-Vinaya taught by the historical Gotama Buddha.

For some people, they prefer to develop Anapanasati, attaining Jhanas, amending their concentration and develop Vipassana further. Then they attain Arahantship. Eg: Gotama Buddha

For some, they prefer to develop Asubha Bhavana, working towards Vipassana and then concentrated through Jhanas further to breakthrough, and attain Arahantship.

For some special cases, people take subject specifically given by Buddha, with this subject they develop concentration to further up Insight development. Eg: Arahant Cula-Panthaka Thera
"Those streams which flow throughout the world, Ajita", said the Lord, "Mindfulness serves to curb them in, This I call the restraint of the streams. But wisdom only turns them off."

(Sn 1035)
bpallister
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Re: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

Post by bpallister »

sakyan wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:15 am It's very disappointing that some people are having doubts about the Suttas, Be they Theravada or Mahayana Ones.

It is plain and simple that whatever teachings leads to the arising and maintaining of the wholesome qualities of mind and the cessation and diminishing of unwholesome qualities of mind, Furthermore whatever teachings leads to disenchantment, dispassion and Cessation of all conditioned phenomenon is the teaching of the Buddhas.

I don't have any doubts towards Theravada and Mahayana Suttas, They are 100% genuine and the words of the Buddha. They all lead to disenchantment, dispassion and Cessation of all conditioned dhammas.

Further more one can contemplate and see for oneself if body and mind is impermanent, suffering and not-self.

One can rightly see the 5 agreegates, 6 elements, 6 sense bases - 6 objects and 6 fetters arising on them to be impermanent, suffering and not-self.

The teaching is plain and simple, Clearly pointing to the truths, Yet holding doubts is a sign of our own lack of practice.
i think you could make the argument that even discussing which is "better" when it comes to theravada v. mahayana or even other paths is evidence of our own ignorance. I suppose that is unavoidable until/unless we attain nibbana, however.
Mr. Seek
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Re: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

Post by Mr. Seek »

sakyan wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:15 am It is plain and simple that whatever teachings leads to the arising and maintaining of the wholesome qualities of mind and the cessation and diminishing of unwholesome qualities of mind, Furthermore whatever teachings leads to disenchantment, dispassion and Cessation of all conditioned phenomenon is the teaching of the Buddhas.
If it was plain and simple we wouldn't be as deluded as we are. For example: Do the majority of Buddhists practice "meditation" dependent on conditioned phenomena? Yes or no? I think most of us know the answer. How many are willing to be honest about it though?
TRobinson465
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Re: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

Post by TRobinson465 »

Ontheway wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:56 am
bpallister wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:10 am Didn't the Buddha say something about many fingers pointing to the moon, implying that there are many paths to nibbana? Couldn't this mean there are multiple Dhammas, as opposed to one true Dhamma? i feel like maybe i'm not saying this as eloquently as i would like.
That "multiple Dhammas" here refers to different meditation methods or penetrations to insight. All of these methods lie within the very same Dhamma-Vinaya taught by the historical Gotama Buddha.


Yes thats what i was thinking as well. this is apparent in several suttas such as the famous anapanasati sutta.
"In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to the development of good will... compassion... appreciation... equanimity... [the perception of the] foulness [of the body]... the perception of inconstancy: such are the monks in this community of monks.

"In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing.
He acknowledges there are multiple meditation methods that are fruitful. But when it comes to some things, there has to be a true and falseness just like with any religion because sometimes they contradict each other. Every religion cant be right, they can all be false but not all right. When it comes to Dhamma that contradicts other Dhamma, only one can be true. Its even possible that all of them can be false, but only one can be true. The only problem is you cant really decipher true Dhamma from counterfeit Dhamma without direct experience. The same way you cant decipher real gold from counterfeit gold unless performed some kind of test on them to find the real gold. And the problem is, as counterfeit gold becomes really prevalent, the more tests you will have to run to find the real gold.

But of course, some people are just lazy/egotistic, and will just assert with full confidence that thier gold is the real gold and everyone elses gold is the counterfeit gold, without actually testing the various golds to begin with. Although personally, i think we are at a stage where the gold in the world is mixed, some gold is more pure gold than others, some gold is more counterfeit gold than others. Its really just a matter of finding purer gold because its not reasonable for everyone to find the absolute purest gold out of this huge mix.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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