A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
bpallister
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A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

Post by bpallister »

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN16_13.html

what is your interpretation of the counterfeit?

I would say it is wrong view.
bhante dhamma
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Re: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

Post by bhante dhamma »

Doing things without taking into consideration EBT's, neglecting path factors, not building kusala Dhamma via pariyatti paṭipatti paṭiveda
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Ontheway
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Re: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

Post by Ontheway »

Modern wild guess or interpretation with no regard for the Pali Tipitaka. That would be counterfeit of Dhamma.
"Those streams which flow throughout the world, Ajita", said the Lord, "Mindfulness serves to curb them in, This I call the restraint of the streams. But wisdom only turns them off."

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bpallister
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Re: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

Post by bpallister »

EBT? Food stamps?? :juggling:
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SDC
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Re: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

Post by SDC »

Before sotapatti many things are unclear, and there is no “true Dhamma” available. So this idea that it is somehow objectively existing beforehand is literally the exact same conceiving that is the reason there is no Dhamma available.
“By breaking the root of unknowing, it smashes the mechanism of deeds, and drops the thunderbolt of knowledge on the taking up of consciousnesses.” Thag 6.8
SarathW
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Re: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

Post by SarathW »

bpallister wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:03 pm https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN16_13.html

what is your interpretation of the counterfeit?

I would say it is wrong view.
It depends on what is your benchmark is.
In Tipitaka that means the teaching pretended to be Tipitaka.
For instance, in my opinion that secular Buddhism is not counterfeit Dhamma as they clearly spell out that they do not beleieve in Kamma Vipaka and rebirth etc. in Tipitaka
However some of the teaching of Sri Lankan monk Ven Kiribathgoda Nananada could be counterfeit Dhamma as he is pretending to teach Tipitaka but teach something else.
Perhaps the teaching of Dhammayutta Nikaya also counterfeit Dhamma as they are pretended to be Theravada.
Mahayana could be conuterfeit Dhamma according to Theravada and Theravada is counterfeit according to Mahayana I suppose.
Anyone who reject Abhidhamma could be considered counterfeit Dhamma.
However Buddha said that any Dhamma contains Four Noble Truth is true Dhamma (Theravada Benchmark) . So all above could be true Dhamma except secular Buddhism even if they have a different interpretation.
You can say it is wrong view but according to whose view it is wrong?
People who follow Abrahamic religion think they have the right view.
:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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bodom
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Re: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

Post by bodom »

SarathW wrote:However some of the teaching of Sri Lankan monk Ven Kiribathgoda Nananada could be counterfeit Dhamma as he is pretending to teach Tipitaka but teach something else.
Everything I've ever read from him and his website comes straight from the suttas so I'm not sure what it is you're referring too here.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
SarathW
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Re: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

Post by SarathW »

bodom wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:06 am
SarathW wrote:However some of the teaching of Sri Lankan monk Ven Kiribathgoda Nananada could be counterfeit Dhamma as he is pretending to teach Tipitaka but teach something else.
Everything I've ever read from him and his website comes straight from the suttas so I'm not sure what it is you're referring too here.

:anjali:
If you read his website you will find he reject Abhidhamma, he avoid some Sutta as part of his teaching he teaches people to make merits to go to Brahama worlds after death as he beleive it is not possible to attain Nibbana in this life.
He bread fish in his temple!
I am not sure whether now he has changed his teaching as there a overwhelming opposition for his teaching.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
TRobinson465
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Re: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

Post by TRobinson465 »

I would say all Dhamma existing today is counterfeit...to a certain extent. Its really just a matter of degree. Only someone who has actually enlightened can properly discern counterfeit Dhamma from true Dhamma. Mahayana Buddhism is technically counterfeit Dhamma, even though it it still more right than non-Buddhist religions overall. Theravada buddhism is also counterfeit, just to a lesser extent than mahayana imo. Of all the various lineages within Theravada Buddhism, some are probably more counterfeit than others, but unless your enlightened you cant really tell.


The same would go for true Dhamma. True Dhamma exists today to a certain extent. Mahayana Buddhism is true Dhamma. Theravada Buddhism is true Dhamma, but to a greater extent than Mahayana. etc. Its basically the same as any historical record. One record of the battle of thermopylae differs from another account of the battle of thermopylae, and both have gaps in thier accounts. Both are true and both are false, its just manner of how much.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
TRobinson465
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Re: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

Post by TRobinson465 »

SarathW wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:10 am If you read his website you will find he reject Abhidhamma, he avoid some Sutta as part of his teaching he teaches people to make merits to go to Brahama worlds after death as he beleive it is not possible to attain Nibbana in this life.
Why would he do that? If you couldnt attain nirvana in this life, wouldnt it be better to make merits to go to Tusita and just reach nirvana during the dispension of Lord Maitreya?
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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bodom
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Re: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

Post by bodom »

SarathW wrote:If you read his website you will find he reject Abhidhamma
Well I can't entirely disagree with him there
he teaches people to make merits to go to Brahama worlds after death
So did the Buddha.
He bread fish in his temple!
I have no idea what that means.
I am not sure whether now he has changed his teaching as there a overwhelming opposition for his teaching.
That's interesting and I have no idea why that would be as I own a few of his Dhamma books and sutta translations and they're great. His Teachings are straight from the suttas.

To each his own I guess. :shrug:

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
SarathW
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Re: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

Post by SarathW »

unless your enlightened you cant really tell.
I agree with your point.
But we have to evaluate this question based on Tipitaka as it is mentioned in Tipitaka.
If this statement was found in Bible or Quran that should be evaluated as per the content of those books.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

Post by SarathW »

To each his own I guess. :shrug:
Agree.
I have no idea what that means.
I think monks are not allowed to keep pets.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
TRobinson465
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Re: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

Post by TRobinson465 »

SarathW wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:18 am
But we have to evaluate this question based on Tipitaka as it is mentioned in Tipitaka.
If this statement was found in Bible or Quran that should be evaluated as per the content of those books.

I would disagree with that. Buddhism differs from Christianity and the Islam in that the "divineness" of its holy book is not infalliable. The Bible and quran are believed to be God given, so it should be complete, infallable and ageless. However the Tipitaka is not divinely given, and is not complete and infallible, and definitely not ageless. Although we do believe the Lord Buddha's word was infallible, as he was a fully enlightened being, the Tipitaka is not considered infallible, for reasons similar to my original response on this thread. things deteriote with time and 2000 year old records can and do have errors, especially as we move farther away from when they were originally given. Also, even if the tipitaka was a perfect record, its nearly impossible to fully understand the original meaning of everything recorded in it. Tons of analogies the Buddha used in the suttas wouldnt make sense if you didnt have a sufficient understanding of ancient indian culture. The suttas even have stories of the Buddhas own monks misunderstanding the Dhamma he taught to them. Who are we to say that we can decipher true Dhamma from translations of copies of copies of copies of texts that record teachings given to people 2600 years ago designed to be understood by them in thier own ancient culture.

Of course, its reasonable we can decipher Dhamma from Adhamma, for instance if something teaches wrong views as defined by the suttas, or things that cause suffering or increase in the defilements. But its pretty hard to decipher true Dhamma from "counterfeit" Dhamma.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
SarathW
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Re: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma

Post by SarathW »

he Tipitaka is not considered infallible, for reasons similar to my original response on this thread. things deteriote with time and 2000 year old records can and do have errors, especially as we move farther away from when they were originally given.
So what could be the benchmark for some to decide what is true or what is wrong?
Benchmark = a standard or point of reference against which things may be compared.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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