Questions on Sotapanna

[Ontheway]

1) viewtopic.php?p=408464#p408464

Thank you for this link.
It answers my question on Cula Sotapanna.

It's a little wrong. A cula-sotapanna is not an ariya-to-be, he is already an Ariya.

Hi un8-,

Sakyan said that Cula-Sotapanna wasn't mentioned in the Suttanta Pitaka and Buddha only mentioned about Saddhānusārī and Dhammānusārī (which I think is correct).

But in the Sanghaguna passage, we see "Cattari purisayugani Attha purisapuggala", so can we say:

Cula-Sotapanna = Saddhānusārī/Dhammānusārī = Sotapanna Magga

?

[sakyan]

Wasn't that only by reaching First Jhana can the mind be freed from those five hindrances?

The Buddha's definition of First Jhana is Quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states of mind, he enters and dwells in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied thought and sustained thought with rapture and happiness born of seclusion.

That means a mind merely freed from 5 hindrances is not sufficient to be called as a mind immersed in first jhana. It also needs applied thought, sustained thought along with rapture and happiness born of seclusion to be called as a proper first jhana.

I merely take a mind freed from 5 hindrances as the first part of Buddha's defination for first jhana i.e as a mind that is Quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states of mind.

As per suttas, The Buddha says even goes on to say that if contemplates metta or impermanence even for a time to snap fingers, One is not said to be without jhana. And this is a very beautiful statement by the Buddha which gives hope and inspires me in laylife to cultivate the practice even if there are time constraints.

[Ontheway]

Wasn't that only by reaching First Jhana can the mind be freed from those five hindrances?

The Buddha's definition of First Jhana is Quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states of mind, he enters and dwells in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied thought and sustained thought with rapture and happiness born of seclusion.

That means a mind merely freed from 5 hindrances is not sufficient to be called as a mind immersed in first jhana. It also needs applied thought, sustained thought along with rapture and happiness born of seclusion to be called as a proper first jhana.

I merely take a mind freed from 5 hindrances as the first part of Buddha's defination for first jhana i.e as a mind that is Quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states of mind.

As per suttas, The Buddha says even goes on to say that if contemplates metta or impermanence even for a time to snap fingers, One is not said to be without jhana. And this is a very beautiful statement by the Buddha which gives hope and inspires me in laylife to cultivate the practice even if there are time constraints.

Thanks for the information.
Yes, I think you are correct on this matter.

I recalled that in Abhidhammattha Sangaha,
"Vitakka-vicara-piti-sukh’-ekaggatasahitam pathamajjhana-kusalacittam."

Only having these five factors, then that is known as First Jhana.

"Quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states of mind "
So I think it is like a key to enter first Jhana.

[un8-]

Thank you for this link.
It answers my question on Cula Sotapanna.

It's a little wrong. A cula-sotapanna is not an ariya-to-be, he is already an Ariya.

Hi un8-,

Sakyan said that Cula-Sotapanna wasn't mentioned in the Suttanta Pitaka and Buddha only mentioned about Saddhānusārī and Dhammānusārī (which I think is correct).

But in the Sanghaguna passage, we see "Cattari purisayugani Attha purisapuggala", so can we say:

Cula-Sotapanna = Saddhānusārī/Dhammānusārī = Sotapanna Magga

?

Correct. There are 8 Ariya types, path and fruit of sotapanna, sakadagamin, etc..

[un8-]

Also, I reiterate, to attain sotapanna phala you need jhana, as you can't give up fetters without jhana. You don't need jhana for sotapanna magga though.

[Ontheway]

It's a little wrong. A cula-sotapanna is not an ariya-to-be, he is already an Ariya.

Hi un8-,

Sakyan said that Cula-Sotapanna wasn't mentioned in the Suttanta Pitaka and Buddha only mentioned about Saddhānusārī and Dhammānusārī (which I think is correct).

But in the Sanghaguna passage, we see "Cattari purisayugani Attha purisapuggala", so can we say:

Cula-Sotapanna = Saddhānusārī/Dhammānusārī = Sotapanna Magga

?

Correct. There are 8 Ariya types, path and fruit of sotapanna, sakadagamin, etc..

I see. Thanks for info.

[Ontheway]

Also, I reiterate, to attain sotapanna phala you need jhana, as you can't give up fetters without jhana. You don't need jhana for sotapanna magga though.

I was reading Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Investigating the Dhamma", found an interesting point:

"The contention between the two parties in the contemporary debate might be recapitulated thus: Those who assert that jhána is necessary for the attainment of stream-entry usually insist that a mundane (or form-sphere) jhána must be secured before one can enter the supramundane path. Those who defend the dry-insight approach hold that a mundane jhána is not indispensable, that a lower degree of concentration suffices as a basis for the cultivation of insight and the attainment of the path.
Both parties usually agree that jhána is part of the actual path experience itself. The issue that divides them is whether the concentration in the preliminary portion of the path must include a jhána.
To decide this question, I wish to query the texts themselves and ask whether they show us instances of stream-enterers who are not attainers of the jhánas. Now while there are no suttas which flatly state that it is possible to become a stream-enterer without having attained at least the first jhána, I think there are several that imply as much."

"(1) Let us start with the Cúladukkhakkhandha Sutta (MN No. 14). The sutta opens when the Sakyan lay disciple Mahánáma, identified by the commentary as a once-returner, comes to the Buddha and presents him with a personal problem.

Although he has long understood, through the guidance of the teaching, that greed, hatred, and delusion are corruptions of the mind (cittassa upakkilesa), such states still arise in him and overpower his mind. This troubles him and makes him wonder what the underlying cause might be. In his reply (M I 91) the Buddha says: “Even though a noble disciple has clearly seen with perfect wisdom that sensual pleasures give little satisfaction and are fraught with suffering and misery , rife with greater danger, if he does not achieve a rapture and happiness apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, or something more peaceful than this, then he is not beyond being enticed by sensual pleasures.” The first part of this statement implies that the subject is at least a stream-enterer, for he is referred to as a “noble disciple” (ariya-sávaka). Though the term ariya-sávaka is occasionally used in a loose sense that need not be taken to imply attainment of stream-entry , here the expression “seeing with perfect wisdom” seems to establish his identity as at least a stream-enterer. Yet the second part of the statement implies he does not possess even the first jhána, for the phrase used to describe what he lacks (“a rapture and happiness apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states”) precisely echoes the wording of the basic formula for the first jhána. The state “more peaceful than that” would, of course, be the higher jhánas.""

Page 107 - 108

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

Vipassanā Jhānas

Samatha Jhāna
There are two types of jhāna: samatha jhāna and vipassanā jhāna. Some of you may have read about the samatha jhānas and wonder why I am talking about them in the context of vipassanā. Samatha jhāna is pure concentration, fixed awareness of a single object — a mental image, for example, such as a colored disk or a light. The mind is fixed on this object without wavering or moving elsewhere. Eventually the mind develops a very peaceful, tranquil, concentrated state and becomes absorbed in the object. Different levels of absorption are described in the texts, each level having specific qualities.

Vipassanā Jhāna
On the other hand, vipassanā jhāna allows the mind to move freely from object to object, staying focused on the characteristics of impermanence, suffering and absence of self that are common to all objects. Vipassanā jhāna also includes the mind which can be focused and fixed upon the bliss of nibbāna. Rather than the tranquillity and absorption which are the goal of samatha jhāna practitioners, the most important results of vipassanā jhāna are insight and wisdom.

[Ontheway]

Vipassanā Jhānas

Samatha Jhāna
There are two types of jhāna: samatha jhāna and vipassanā jhāna. Some of you may have read about the samatha jhānas and wonder why I am talking about them in the context of vipassanā. Samatha jhāna is pure concentration, fixed awareness of a single object — a mental image, for example, such as a colored disk or a light. The mind is fixed on this object without wavering or moving elsewhere. Eventually the mind develops a very peaceful, tranquil, concentrated state and becomes absorbed in the object. Different levels of absorption are described in the texts, each level having specific qualities.

Vipassanā Jhāna
On the other hand, vipassanā jhāna allows the mind to move freely from object to object, staying focused on the characteristics of impermanence, suffering and absence of self that are common to all objects. Vipassanā jhāna also includes the mind which can be focused and fixed upon the bliss of nibbāna. Rather than the tranquillity and absorption which are the goal of samatha jhāna practitioners, the most important results of vipassanā jhāna are insight and wisdom.

Namo Buddhaya, Bhante.

Thank you for the note.
It seems Burmese monks divided Jhanas into two sets. But from what I read from Maggavibhanga Sutta and also Abhidhamattha Sangaha, it didn't categories into such system. From Suttantabhajaniya method, it was fourfold reckoning. Meanwhile, it is fivefold reckoning instead in Abhidhammabhajaniya method.

This 'Samatha Jhanas and Vipassana Jhanas' categorization, does it come from Suttanta texts?

[un8-]

...

There's really nothing to speculate about, the suttas clearly lay it out

“Mendicants, it’s totally impossible that a mendicant who enjoys company and groups, who loves them and likes to enjoy them, should take pleasure in being alone in seclusion. Without taking pleasure in being alone in seclusion, it’s impossible to learn the patterns of the mind. Without learning the patterns of the mind, it’s impossible to fulfill right view. Without fulfilling right view, it’s impossible to fulfill right immersion. Without fulfilling right immersion, it’s impossible to give up the fetters. Without giving up the fetters, it’s impossible to realize extinguishment.

https://suttacentral.net/an6.68/en/suja ... ript=latin

Can't give up fetters without jhana.

Even the first 3 fetters:

Without giving up three things you can’t give up identity view, doubt, and misapprehension of precepts and observances. What three? Improper attention, following a wrong path, and mental sluggishness. Without giving up these three things you can’t give up identity view, doubt, and misapprehension of precepts and observances.

Without giving up three things you can’t give up improper attention, following a wrong path, and mental sluggishness. What three? Unmindfulness, lack of situational awareness, and distracted mind. Without giving up these three things you can’t give up improper attention, following a wrong path, and mental sluggishness.

Without giving up three things you can’t give up unmindfulness, lack of situational awareness, and distracted mind. What three? Not wanting to see the noble ones, not wanting to hear the teaching of the noble ones, and a fault-finding mind. Without giving up these three things you can’t give up unmindfulness, lack of situational awareness, and distracted mind.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.76/en/suj ... ript=latin


Distracted mind means no Ekaggata which is what samma samadhi results in. So you need Ekaggata to give up the first 3 fetters.

There are things that are the foundation of serenity and freedom from distraction. Atthi, bhikkhave, samathanimittaṁ abyagganimittaṁ.

Frequent proper attention to them
Tattha yonisomanasikārabahulīkāro—

fuels the arising of the awakening factor of immersion, or, when it has arisen, fully develops it.

https://suttacentral.net/sn46.51/en/suj ... ript=latin

abyagga vs ekaggata

samadhi = ekaggata

“Unification of the mind is immersion. “Yā kho, āvuso visākha, cittassa ekaggatā ayaṁ samādhi;

- mn 44

Anyone who rejects jhanas, rejects the fourth noble truth and thus has wrong view.

[jons]

Hi all

I have some questions about Sotapanna.

1) How to know if someone attained Cula-Sotapanna or a Sotapanna? What would be their differences?

2) If someone attained Stream Entry stage, what are the possible and impossible in terms of morality?

3) If someone was checking the "Mirror of Dhamma" and found that he/she got all the things required. Is there a chance that he/she maybe just overestimate him-/herself?

4) Is Jhana attainment a MUST for attaining Sotapanna Phala? I saw some threads in this forum and it seems there is no definite conclusion so far. Is there a Sutta that gives a conclusive answer on this matter?

Thank you.

Jhana is not required to attain any level of awakening; however, knowledge and insights to let go of Kilesa and asavas are required. If you read Samadhi Sutta, you will see that Jhana practice is for Pleasant Abiding.

Queen Khema of Magadha and Bhadda Kundalakesa, they became, just after listening to the Buddha's teachings.

In order to attain stream entry, First you must let go of Greed and Ill-will, then contemplating on Aging, illness, and death, until your mind is getting impacted by Aniccam, Dukkham, and Anatta. That is the moment your mind is changing from worldling to Sotapanna. Then you will have a whole day of bliss.

Read the Weaver's daughter story

You can easily understand Anicca and Dukkha; however, Anatta is a very hard one to see and understand. Contemplating on aging, you will see it.

my opinion

Jons

[Ontheway]

I think I found the answer regarding meditation and Sotapanna from this Indonesian Bhante.
I used auto translate on the YouTube.

[Ontheway]

Hi all

I have some questions about Sotapanna.

1) How to know if someone attained Cula-Sotapanna or a Sotapanna? What would be their differences?

2) If someone attained Stream Entry stage, what are the possible and impossible in terms of morality?

3) If someone was checking the "Mirror of Dhamma" and found that he/she got all the things required. Is there a chance that he/she maybe just overestimate him-/herself?

4) Is Jhana attainment a MUST for attaining Sotapanna Phala? I saw some threads in this forum and it seems there is no definite conclusion so far. Is there a Sutta that gives a conclusive answer on this matter?

Thank you.

Jhana is not required to attain any level of awakening; however, knowledge and insights to let go of Kilesa and asavas are required. If you read Samadhi Sutta, you will see that Jhana practice is for Pleasant Abiding.

Queen Khema of Magadha and Bhadda Kundalakesa, they became, just after listening to the Buddha's teachings.

In order to attain stream entry, First you must let go of Greed and Ill-will, then contemplating on Aging, illness, and death, until your mind is getting impacted by Aniccam, Dukkham, and Anatta. That is the moment your mind is changing from worldling to Sotapanna. Then you will have a whole day of bliss.

Read the Weaver's daughter story

You can easily understand Anicca and Dukkha; however, Anatta is a very hard one to see and understand. Contemplating on aging, you will see it.

my opinion

Jons

Thanks for the advice.